[RockIt]

Over the weekend the car was parked in a Bradford car park, 2 hours paid for and overstayed by 20 minutes. Usually manage to park in a space allocated to the restaurant we go to, but these spaces were full, so a ticket was purchased and we genuinely forgot that the ticket had expired. When we came back to the car there were only 4 other vehicles in the car park and a Parking Charge Notice had been stuck on the window of our vehicle at 11.30pm.

The charge states 'You are required to pay the fee of £60 payable within 14 days from the date of issue.'

The company name is L.C.P.M - Local Car Park Management, based in London.

It also states that there will be a further charge of £15 admin 'added to your fine and this will then be sent to our solicitor to recover the money owed.'

I have no intention of just handing £60 over to this company, but wondered if anyone had any dealings with them? A google search also turns up nothing.

I have checked out advice on the consumer forums and various other places and all seem to suggest that these companies will send a variety of threatening letters, including letters from debt collection agencies, but are powerless unless they issue court proceedings. All anecdotal evidence indicates that they never actually take anyone to court.

This is a parking charge rather than a fixed penalty. Apparently the onus is on the company to prove breach of contract and also who the driver of the car was, as they can only secure information about the registered keeper.

Anyone had any experience of this?

[F31-340i]

Happened to me in scarborough.

I paid up before I read the consumer advice - I think it maybe worth fighting on the basis that the charge is disproportionate to their loss (i.e. you in one of their spaces for 20mins denying them selling it to someone else), but its probably not strightforward.

They would argue that you entered a contract when entering the car park & hence accepted their terms and conditions - the signs will say this etc. - but it occurred to me that you could put a bit of paper in the windscreen altering your acceptance of their contract - i.e. "I agree to your terms but will only pay £2 if I overstay, not £60" etc. - you get the idea. Can they prove you didn't have such a piece of paper in your windscreen altering your acceptance of the contract you entered into? Could be fun trying....but you may want to ask a contract lawyer, if you know any, first. As you point out, they are only companies, so haven't that same powers to fine as say the police etc.

[zltm089]

i wud definitely dispute it...

[dobsy]

Tell em to stick it-gang of cowboys.

That money saving forum has loads on it as you've probably come across via google.
A letter telling them to pursue the driver of the vehicle should get them of your back. And if they ask you to tell them who it was, you're not legally obliged to tell them (like you are when you get a speeding fine) as they're just another company, not 'the law'.

Good luck

[NathanJT]

IANAL however I seem to remember this being a big deal a while ago on moneysavingexpert.

Basically they can only claim, as already mentioned, the actual loss to them plus a "small" administration fee. So, 20 minutes would cost them say £1 and maybe £10-£15 to administer your payment.

Definitely dispute it. However make sure as to NOT accept, or imply your acceptance of the contract.

[NathanJT]

Originally Posted by dobsy

Tell em to stick it-gang of cowboys.

That money saving forum has loads on it as you've probably come across via google.
A letter telling them to pursue the driver of the vehicle should get them of your back. And if they ask you to tell them who it was, you're not legally obliged to tell them (like you are when you get a speeding fine) as they're just another company, not 'the law'.

Good luck

Only issue is if they have you on CCTV you'll end up in court for perjury if you deny it was you.

[xenon]

They are not powerless to issue court proceedings - any individual can do that. You may mean they are powerless to issue criminal proceedings which is certainly true, but they can sue you in a civil court as could anyone with cause. Whether they will or not is a different matter.

What they will do is hassle you for the charge for a number of months, increasing the charge owing each time. When it gets to £150 they will sell the debt to a licensed collection agency who a) mark a negative reference on your credit file and b) collect a baliff's order from the court. They'll do that as it costs them nothing, the charge is added to what you owe.

It is a real ball-ache and you might get away with telling them to nob off but you probably won't.

Good luck.

[xenon]

Originally Posted by NathanJT

Only issue is if they have you on CCTV you'll end up in court for perjury if you deny it was you.

That's not perjury.

[ianmandlindaf]

I had one of these 12 months ago they wanted £100 for 20 mins overstay, it is true that they make it look like a fixed penalty charge to get you to pay-up straight away.

You have to have some balls and ignore all of their correspondence they cant do any thing about it even though some of the letters are very intimidating.
But it you hold your nerve it's like a rash after a while it goes away.

[xenon]

You're wrong to say they can't do a thing about it. They might choose not to but if it's private property, marked as such, and you overstay your paid time then they can definately start preceedings.

However, they might not and in your case they didn't so good luck to you.

[ianmandlindaf]

"Private companies can issue tickets to drivers parked on their property, but the rules are not the same as local authorities.
If you receive a ticket in a private car park, remember that it is not criminal law, but contract law that applies. The driver enters into a contract with the landowner when they drive into the car park. That means that it is only the driver that can be subject to a ticket from a private company. If they do not know who the driver was, they cannot claim a penalty. They have no legal right to demand that you identify the driver.....

...If the company wish to pursue a claim in the small claims court, they have to prove that you were the driver of the car. Any comments that you make may assist them in this aim, so best to say nothing.

If you refuse to pay, the private company has to pursue you through the small claims court. It is up to them to prove a breach of contract so look at the terms carefully. These are usually printed on a sign at the entrance to the car park.

Additionally, you may be able to reduce any fine issued by a private company. Under contract law, they can only claim for any loss they have suffered because of your offence. They may try to claim a penalty of say, £100, but in law they may only be entitled to any revenue lost. So, if you pay £2 to park for one hour, but stay for three hours, they can only claim for two hours of lost revenue, which is £4. ........."

[E902717]

Originally Posted by ianmandlindaf

I had one of these 12 months ago they wanted £100 for 20 mins overstay, it is true that they make it look like a fixed penalty charge to get you to pay-up straight away.

You have to have some balls and ignore all of their correspondence they cant do any thing about it even though some of the letters are very intimidating.
But it you hold your nerve it's like a rash after a while it goes away.

xenon is correct they can do something about it but if you check online I don't think anyone has actually got to court over it. its a civil matter and not criminal as its just a breach of contract. The only good thing is they need to prove it was you who entered into the contract so unless you tell them or they can get CCTV footage they cant prove it was you?

Most of these companies work on the basis of fear and the person will just pay the fine. Also how do they take someone to court when they don't even know who it is?

Reading about it looks like this place http://www.pepipoo.com/ is the best website to get advice from and they also have template letters to tell them to piss off.


Hope you get sorted...either pay it or see how big your balls are and wait it out until they go away

[willhollin]

Just be careful when picking up the soap in the showers Gav.

[RockIt]

Thanks for all the replies...and your ever helpful advice Will!!

My understanding is pretty much as E902717 states and whilst I understand that they can issue civil proceedings, as I said, evidence appears to suggest that they don't.

I do know that there is no CCTV on the car park in question.

Buggers have left a really sticky mark on my driver's window when they stuck the parking charge on and it's going to take some shifting. Maybe I should charge them for the removal of their 'sticky residue'. I'm sure I could word it imaginatively...

[m@rk]

Originally Posted by ianmandlindaf

The driver enters into a contract with the landowner when they drive into the car park. That means that it is only the driver that can be subject to a ticket from a private company. If they do not know who the driver was, they cannot claim a penalty. They have no legal right to demand that you identify the driver.....

.

This is the easy option

You have stated that there is no CCTV and that you were not the only person in the car.

So

Have they sent the ticket to the DRIVER of the car

Was it really YOU driving that night or was it your partner

Because if they have not then you can ignore it and there is NOTHING they can do.

[Hotcoupe]

Easiest option is to take the letter out of the envelope and feed it straight to the shredder, the envelope can be recycled.

Repeat the process when you receive any further correspondence.

[doughboy]

Did you see watchdog last night - same issue with McDonalds parking company Metpark.

A leading lawyer on the subject suggested the best thing to do with the 'parking charge' was to turn it into a paper plane and throw it away!!

These companies profit from gullible frightened people who pay up, they have no interest in spending any money or time pursuing someone in the courts for £60 or whatever. Whereas the police or local authorities have legal powers to bring criminal procceeding against you, so for them it is the succesful prosecution that matters rather than the fine (in theory)

These private companies have to prove breach of contract against you, nothing to do with the actual parking matter itself, just breach of notional contract that you alledgedly entered into by parking in that car park.

He said not one single civil case has bee brought by these companies as basically they know they'll lose so they just keep hassling you for a while then give up.

They cannot get the money off you by any means
They cannot use debt recovery agencies without a county court judgement (CCJ) whihc they won't get without starting proceeding against you
They cannot affect your credit ratings etc without a CCJ either as they have no grounds to do so

Chuck it in the bin - you'll feel better!

[chris330D]

I don't know if anyone on here is a lawyer? I had a similar one but my ticket was in time but upside down i.e. the printed face on the dash. I spoke with a lawyer friend and yes you should dispute it at first. They should provide evidence e.g. a timed photo showing you overstaying. The next key point is are the t's and 's clearly visible ie the charge per hour and penalty for non compliance. If so you are in breach of contract. It is then your call if you think it is worth chancing it and ignoring or just paying up. They should offer an escalation process which you should follow initially. Good luck and no I am not a lawyer, just offering my experience.

[dobsy]

Originally Posted by Hotcoupe

Easiest option is to take the letter out of the envelope and feed it straight to the shredder, the envelope can be recycled.

Repeat the process when you receive any further correspondence.

Excellent advice! Could'nt agree more!

[RockIt]

Thanks guys

Looks like I'll not be parting with any cash then

[NathanJT]

Originally Posted by xenon

That's not perjury.

Agreed, what I meant was that if you find yourself in small claims denying it was you driving and they produce CCTV to prove it was... that's purgery.

[xenon]

Originally Posted by doughboy

They cannot use debt recovery agencies without a county court judgement (CCJ) whihc they won't get without starting proceeding against you

We use private debt collection services all the time and you don't need a CCJ in order to appoint one.