This can sometimes happen when you get frustrated waiting for the new M3

JK42 · 10-25-2006, 07:07 PM

Film removed, off topic. And everyone's already seen it anyway.

Best regards,

Jussi

spikes111 · 10-25-2006, 07:26 PM

Nice 130i Jussi! Tho u should have been trying to write "M" on the ground

replicat · 10-25-2006, 08:12 PM

I love that 130i, i wish that it was here in the states!

JK42 · 10-25-2006, 08:19 PM

I love the 130i M Sport too. I'm going to keep it even when the M3 comes. It's the best basic BMW to come out in years. Silent, high-quality, excellent steering - better than basic Z4 3.0si Coupé or Roadster models which have the sucky electric steering assistant, the 130i has the traditional BMW rack and pinion hydraulic steering, so it's loads of fun. Especially since it's so light, and I have the high-power ECU software on it.

But talking about having fun, I'll try to get the BMW resellers Z4 M Coupé demo car again for a loan for the whole next weekend (even though I already had it for 3 days and did my work with it), if it's free from customer loans. I wanna take it to the track and tear things up before winter sets in here and it gets too slippery. Today was probably the last dry road day for several months, so that's why we went on that ride with a friend where that little video is from... If I get the Z4 M Coupé to the track, I'll take my DV video camera and post some real track action video performed with it. It's a great power-slider with the M Limited Slip Differential. Come to think of it, if I could have 2 BMWs, they would probably be the Z4 M Coupé and the new E92 M3. The first is the most fun BMW ever, it's what the E46 M3 should have been, and the E92 M3 promises to be even much, much more.

Best regards,

Jussi

replicat · 10-25-2006, 08:23 PM

Winter in Finland = Reason why Finnish people are the best drivers ever...just look at f1, and wrc. I want to travel there so badly. In spring/summer its so beautiful there.

JK42 · 10-25-2006, 09:17 PM

Winter in Finland is hell... Snow and slush. Especially in south it's mostly slush on the roads, and roads are salted (salt melts ice) which stucks on to cars and makes them look like shit unless you wash your car every single day... But driving in good snow or icy conditions with proper winter tyres is kinda fun, we (the BMW drivers) call it the "side forwards" season, since every self-respecting BMW driver always drives with the DSC off even in the winter, and that results in spectacular slides and "side forwards" situations in traffic - constantly. And those conditions make for pretty good drivers. You'll learn to control your car, or you'll end up dead pretty fast.

Best regards,

Jussi

*cough* *cough*, too many cigarettes today.

replicat · 10-25-2006, 09:27 PM

It may be hell, but you know what? That weather produces damn good drivers.

Jason · 10-26-2006, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by replicat

It may be hell, but you know what? That weather produces damn good drivers.

Raikonnen

Hope he breaks through one of these years.

JK: hope to see you doing that with the E92 M3 eventually

replicat · 10-26-2006, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason

Raikonnen

Hope he breaks through one of these years.

JK: hope to see you doing that with the E92 M3 eventually

Raikkonen is my GOD.

JK42 · 10-26-2006, 06:29 AM

Jason: Like I said, I'm gonna try to hitch the local Z4 M Coupé for next weekend and get you some track videos with that. And if the E92 M3's weight is okay then I will definitely be doing that with it next summer... But much, much, much faster, and with much more tire smoke.

Best regards,

Jussi

meruyailir · 10-26-2006, 11:49 AM

Jussi, how fast is your 130, say 0-100kph? Is it faster than the 335?

Smoltz · 10-26-2006, 12:38 PM

Did you consider purchasing the current model Golf R32? If so, what made you go for the 130?

-Adam

JK42 · 10-26-2006, 01:56 PM

Meruyailir:

I haven't had a chance to measure the 0-100km/h after the ECU software was upgraded because the weather has been very wet all time the time after that. It was 5.73s 0-100 before the ECU upgrade, so I'm pretty sure it's faster than the 335i now, since the old time would beat the 335iA (Automatic) which I timed at exactly 5.77s 0-100 when I had it for test driving on the road and on the track. I haven't had a chance to try a manual 335i yet.

Smoltz: No I did not consider purchasing the current model Golf R32 or anything else for that matter. I changed my old 330Ci for the 130i mainly to stop the depreciation of value of the old 330Ci since the new E92 Coupés came out, but also because it is a BMW and I only buy and use BMW, Ferrari, Maserati and RUF automobiles when it's on my dime. Since I had already driven the 130i over a year ago when it first came to the market, I knew that as a BMW it had excellent BMW-like handling thanks to the rack and pinion hydraulic steering (which the other option, Z4 Coupé 3.0si did not have), rear-wheel drive and the M Sport-package gives it a very high quality interior and exterior as well - unlike the very boring VW Golf that shares it's baseplate with "SkodAudis" A3. The 130i also has BMW's best straight six engine, the N52B30, which is incredible. It is the lightest six-cylinder engine in the world and you can read more about it here:

http://www.germancarfans.com/print.cfm/ID/2040718.001

VAG groups products are not interesting to me in the least, as their engines are inferior and for hundreds of other reasons that I won't bother to even start listing here.

Best regards,

Jussi

Smoltz · 10-26-2006, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JK42

Meruyailir:

I haven't had a chance to measure the 0-100km/h after the ECU software was upgraded because the weather has been very wet all time the time after that. It was 5.73s 0-100 before the ECU upgrade, so I'm pretty sure it's faster than the 335i now, since the old time would beat the 335iA (Automatic) which I timed at exactly 5.77s 0-100 when I had it for test driving on the road and on the track. I haven't had a chance to try a manual 335i yet.

Smoltz: No I did not consider purchasing the current model Golf R32 or anything else for that matter. I changed my old 330Ci for the 130i mainly to stop the depreciation of value of the old 330Ci since the new E92 Coupés came out, but also because it is a BMW and I only buy and use BMW, Ferrari, Maserati and RUF automobiles when it's on my dime. Since I had already driven the 130i over a year ago when it first came to the market, I knew that as a BMW it had excellent BMW-like handling thanks to the rack and pinion hydraulic steering (which the other option, Z4 Coupé 3.0si did not have), rear-wheel drive and the M Sport-package gives it a very high quality interior and exterior as well - unlike the very boring VW Golf that shares it's baseplate with "SkodAudis" A3. The 130i also has BMW's best straight six engine, the N52B30, which is incredible. It is the lightest six-cylinder engine in the world and you can read more about it here:

http://www.germancarfans.com/print.cfm/ID/2040718.001

VAG groups products are not interesting to me in the least, as their engines are inferior and for hundreds of other reasons that I won't bother to even start listing here.

Best regards,

Jussi

You seem to very knowledegable overall and have some very good insight but blanket statements like this one "VAG groups products are not interesting to me in the least, as their engines are inferior and for hundreds of other reasons that I won't bother to even start listing here." tend to undermine your credibility given that it simply isn't true.

Engines like the 1.8T, 2.0T, 3.2L VR6, RS4 Motor have received rave reviews from their inception. Some of their engines aren't very good, and I would say that on the whole that BMWs lineup is better,but to call their engines inferior is ill-informed.

-Adam

Last E92 M3 · 10-26-2006, 04:47 PM

fun stuff

how come US dont import 1 series

i'd love to have one of those

Smoltz · 10-26-2006, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last E92 M3

fun stuff

how come US dont import 1 series

i'd love to have one of those

In my opinion there are two main reasons. 1) Market positioning. BMW USA wants to be seen as a high end brand and to US Buyers a small hatch back doesn't jive with that. 2) Even if they were inclined to bring the car, the pricing structure and model structure would put it up against the A3, and the A3 hasn't been a great seller for Audi, now some of that has to do with the A3 lineup offered here (which isn't very good) but a big part of it is because most US buyers with 30-40k to spend a sport luxury car aren't looking for a hatch/wagon.

I'd like to see the car offered here, but with that being said, given the current drivetrain & body configuration as well as the indicated performance based on a number of reviews I've read. I wouldn't buy it.

-Adam

JK42 · 10-26-2006, 05:26 PM

Smoltz,

The 1.8T was terrible in all of it's incarnations. The torque-curve combined with it's transmission final drive ratio made it a real pain in the ass to drive.

The "new" 3.2L V6 is pathetic. It weighs more than BMW's 3.0L N52B30 but produces less power and torque.

All of VAG-groups turbodiesel-engines have less power and torque in their class as similiar BMW turbodiesel-engines. Sometimes significantly, for example, the 3.0TDI only has 440Nm where BMW 530d's M57TUD30 has 500Nm, and soon the upgraded M57TU2D30 520Nm. Even the V10 Turbodiesel that they had on the much-hyped Touareg here has the same torque as BMW's M67D44 which is a 4.4L V8 turbodiesel. (750Nm of torque - earth-shattering in the V8, usual in an over 5-liter V10) And the M67D44 has a the torque on starting from a lower RPM and has it on wider range than the V10.

There are other reasons to despise the VAG group, including the fact that they have completely raped most of the luxury brands, such as Lamborghini, that they've acquired. The Gallardo looks like a TT from inside, terrible cheap plastic. And these used to be cars that could compete with Ferrari in styling - not anymore. Audi is a glorified volkswagen/skoda which uses the same parts, engines, base plates and everything else - they're doing the same thing as Lexus - selling "premium" models to idiots who think that the brand means something, when in reality it's just a brand, doesn't tell you anything about the quality. And the RS4's V8 is horrible is what I've heard from a BMW tech who used to work in an Audi shop. It was apparently rushed to the market so fast that nearly every user has had to have theirs repaired and/or replaced within the first 3 months of ownership. And it still produces much less than the 4L V8 for the new M3 will produce.

As you can read on my other posts, I'm predicting Audi will soon make a full-RWD car as they need to follow customer demand, and they have been making the 4WD Quattro cars more and more RWD-oriented, where they used to advertise 50:50 drive as the best there is (it isn't. even Michael Schumacher can't get a 50:50 distributed Quattro back into control once you lose control on a slippery, wet, icy or snowy surface.)

So, I have my reasons not to even consider VAG products. They're just a pain in the ass, because too many people think they can be compared to BMW's, when they can't.

Best regards,

Jussi

JK42 · 10-26-2006, 05:28 PM

"The indicated performance" ? The 130i would probably be the only model that BMW would bring to the US market. It does Nordschleife in 8:35 (which your beloved VW R32 does in 8:55), same time as E36 M3's. Just 10 seconds less than E46 M3. That indicates a pretty fucking amazing performance - and no wonder, it was built and tested and born at the Nordschleife, just like all high-end BMW cars these days. Yes, I said high-end, that's because with BMW the engine-model determines the positioning of a model much more than the series. There are much crappier 3- and 5- series base models with much, much less features than the 130i. (And cheaper, too.) The 1-series based 2-door, convertible and coupé's will be brought to the us at least, 130i might, too. Some of the models may be called 2-series at that point.

Best regards,

Jussi

Smoltz · 10-26-2006, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JK42

Smoltz,

The 1.8T was terrible in all of it's incarnations. The torque-curve combined with it's transmission final drive ratio made it a real pain in the ass to drive.

The "new" 3.2L V6 is pathetic. It weighs more than BMW's 3.0L N52B30 but produces less power and torque.

You're entitled to your own opinion but both engines received rave reviews in the press and from auto enthusiasts alike. You're correct, but what about cost? If I'm not mistaken when you compare a similarly eqipped 130i and R32, the 130 costs roughly 15% more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JK42

All of VAG-gropus turbodiesel-engines have less power and torque in their class as similiar BMW turbodiesel-engines. Sometimes significantly, for example, the 3.0TDI only has 440Nm where BMW 530d's M57TUD30 has 500Nm, and soon the upgraded M57TU2D30 520Nm. Even the V10 Turbodiesel that they had on the much-hyped Touareg here has the same torque as BMW's M67D44 which is a 4.4L V8 turbodiesel. (750Nm of torque - earth-shattering in the V8, usual in an over 5-liter V10) And the M67D44 has a the torque on starting from a lower RPM and has it on wider range than the V10.

We don't really get any diesels here so I can't really comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JK42

There are other reasons to despise the VAG group, including the fact that they have completely raped most of the luxury brands, such as Lamborghini, that they've acquired. The Gallardo looks like a TT from inside, terrible cheap plastic. And these used to be cars that could compete with Ferrari in styling - not anymore. Audi is a glorified volkswagen/skoda which uses the same parts, engines, base plates and everything else - they're doing the same thing as Lexus - selling "premium" models to idiots who think that the brand means something, when in reality it's just a brand, doesn't tell you anything about the quality.

Lamborghinis do nothing for me (nor have they ever). The gallardo interior definitely does steal a lot of audi parts (mostly from the a4) but all of the gallardos I have seen have leather dashs & center consoles and the a4 climate control and radio units are nicely made and look good IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JK42

And the RS4's V8 is horrible is what I've heard from a BMW tech who used to work in an Audi shop. It was apparently rushed to the market so fast that nearly every user has had to have theirs repaired and/or replaced within the first 3 months of ownership. And it still produces much less than the 4L V8 for the new M3 will produce.

That simply isn't true. I don't know what else to say. Go to some of the popular Audi forums and look around. There have been very few issues with the RS4, now the B6 S4 on the other hand, yikes!

As for specific output. You can't make that declaration until the M3 has been released. Although I agree that the new M3s motor will in all probabilty have a higher specific output than the RS4s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JK42

As you can read on my other posts, I'm predicting Audi will soon make a full-RWD car as they need to follow customer demand, and they have been making the 4WD Quattro cars more and more RWD-oriented, where they used to advertise 50:50 drive as the best there is (it isn't. even Michael Schumacher can't get a 50:50 distributed Quattro back into control once you lose control on a slippery, wet, icy or snowy surface.)

I'm a RWD fan, I've owned an S4, it's BOORING.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JK42

So, I have my reasons not to even consider VAG products. They're just a pain in the ass, because too many people think they can be compared to BMW's, when they can't.

Best regards,

Jussi

I understand what you're saying and like I said you're entitled to your own opinion. I'm not saying that VAG products are the greastest thing since sliced bread or that there better than BMW, but rather that you're giving them less credit than they deserve given the number of accolades they've received from the press as well as a large following from enthusiasts. Here in the US, MK IV R32s hold 75% of their value with 50-60k mile on them. Seriously.

-Adam

Smoltz · 10-26-2006, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JK42

"The indicated performance" ? The 130i would probably be the only model that BMW would bring to the US market. It does Nordschleife in 8:35 (which your beloved VW R32 does in 8:55), same time as E36 M3's. Just 10 seconds less than E46 M3. That indicates a pretty fucking amazing performance - and no wonder, it was built and tested and born at the Nordschleife, just like all high-end BMW cars these days.

First things first, I never think I called the R32, 'beloved'

With that being said though the 2003 R32 does the Nordschleife in 8:37. The 130i's 8:35 doesn't seem that impressive, given your statement that that engine is 'pathetic' , 'underpowered' , etc.

-Adam

Just in case you don't beleive me...

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1499/2697351dfv0.jpg

JK42 · 10-26-2006, 07:21 PM

Quote:

I understand what you're saying and like I said you're entitled to your own opinion. I'm not saying that VAG products are the greastest thing since sliced bread or that there better than BMW, but rather that you're giving them less credit than they deserve given the number of accolades they've received from the press as well as a large following from enthusiasts. Here in the US, MK IV R32s hold 75% of their value with 50-60k mile on them. Seriously.

-Adam

The problem with VAG is that they do not innovate. Basically at all. The last "big new thing" from them was the DSG double clutch. And they bought that from a gearbox manufacturer, like any other company could have. BMW innovates, they build their own stuff.

I was just watching old Miami Vice reruns from the 80's and seeing Castillo's Lamborghini made me sick to my stomach to remember what VAG has done to Lamborghini. Lambs never were that important to me either, but now they're gone forever.

What does it tell you when Bernard Pietsch, the CEO of VAG drives a BMW M5 and is proud of it?

The R32 Norschleife time said 8:49, which is pretty close to 8:55 which I have heard of. We were talking about the "latest and greatest" from VAG, the Golf V R32, after all. The Golf IV must have been tuned somehow or something since it's slower in straight line. Or maybe the new Golf V just sucks on track (I know it did when I was trying out the 650i Cabrio this summer and there were some people from VAG sharing the track that day who I know from the track and other events, and they were cursing to have to spend the whole day testing, and I quote "this piece of shit")... and we raced it against the 650i Cabrio, which is heavy as hell.... No competition. Of course they're 2 totally different cars too. The R32 could not go into a slide, no matter how hard they tried (and some of these guys are very good drivers with tens of years of experience) - it would always just slip sideways and tend to turn around when they tried to put it into powerslide. Apparently the old Golf IV could slide a little better, even though it's 4motion 4WD isn't really for sliding into corners either. Any BMW can slide corners faster (and actually slide corners at all!), these VWs couldn't (they had 4 R32's and 2 GTI's), and the same applies for the Audi models that are sold of them - same technology, different logo, bigger pricetag. The engine problem must have been the S4 then, I recall a huge problem that they complained about, didn't pay too much attention to it - anyway, I can double-check tomorrow.

Best regards,

Jussi

replicat · 10-27-2006, 02:06 AM

Great debate gentlemen. Both of you guys had great points. In the end I had the scoring in favor of Jussi. The knowledge that man has is remarkable, the facts about different manufacturers keep pouring out.
Also VAG is the GMC/FMC of Germany, they capitalize their profits on ideas that aren't theirs to begin with.

10-25-2006, 07:07 PM	#1
JK42 First Lieutenant 22 Rep 374 Posts Drives: E70 BMW X5 4.8i Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern Europe iTrader: (0)	This can sometimes happen when you get frustrated waiting for the new M3 Film removed, off topic. And everyone's already seen it anyway. Best regards, Jussi
	Appreciate 0 Tweet Quote

10-25-2006, 07:26 PM	#2
spikes111 Lieutenant 294 Rep 432 Posts Drives: M4 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA iTrader: (0)	Nice 130i Jussi! Tho u should have been trying to write "M" on the ground __________________
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-25-2006, 08:12 PM	#3
replicat Lieutenant 25 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	I love that 130i, i wish that it was here in the states!
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-25-2006, 08:19 PM	#4
JK42 First Lieutenant 22 Rep 374 Posts Drives: E70 BMW X5 4.8i Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern Europe iTrader: (0)	I love the 130i M Sport too. I'm going to keep it even when the M3 comes. It's the best basic BMW to come out in years. Silent, high-quality, excellent steering - better than basic Z4 3.0si Coupé or Roadster models which have the sucky electric steering assistant, the 130i has the traditional BMW rack and pinion hydraulic steering, so it's loads of fun. Especially since it's so light, and I have the high-power ECU software on it. But talking about having fun, I'll try to get the BMW resellers Z4 M Coupé demo car again for a loan for the whole next weekend (even though I already had it for 3 days and did my work with it), if it's free from customer loans. I wanna take it to the track and tear things up before winter sets in here and it gets too slippery. Today was probably the last dry road day for several months, so that's why we went on that ride with a friend where that little video is from... If I get the Z4 M Coupé to the track, I'll take my DV video camera and post some real track action video performed with it. It's a great power-slider with the M Limited Slip Differential. Come to think of it, if I could have 2 BMWs, they would probably be the Z4 M Coupé and the new E92 M3. The first is the most fun BMW ever, it's what the E46 M3 should have been, and the E92 M3 promises to be even much, much more. Best regards, Jussi
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-25-2006, 08:23 PM	#5
replicat Lieutenant 25 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	Winter in Finland = Reason why Finnish people are the best drivers ever...just look at f1, and wrc. I want to travel there so badly. In spring/summer its so beautiful there.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-25-2006, 09:17 PM	#6
JK42 First Lieutenant 22 Rep 374 Posts Drives: E70 BMW X5 4.8i Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern Europe iTrader: (0)	Winter in Finland is hell... Snow and slush. Especially in south it's mostly slush on the roads, and roads are salted (salt melts ice) which stucks on to cars and makes them look like shit unless you wash your car every single day... But driving in good snow or icy conditions with proper winter tyres is kinda fun, we (the BMW drivers) call it the "side forwards" season, since every self-respecting BMW driver always drives with the DSC off even in the winter, and that results in spectacular slides and "side forwards" situations in traffic - constantly. And those conditions make for pretty good drivers. You'll learn to control your car, or you'll end up dead pretty fast. Best regards, Jussi cough cough, too many cigarettes today.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-25-2006, 09:27 PM	#7
replicat Lieutenant 25 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	It may be hell, but you know what? That weather produces damn good drivers.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-26-2006, 06:29 AM	#10
JK42 First Lieutenant 22 Rep 374 Posts Drives: E70 BMW X5 4.8i Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern Europe iTrader: (0)	Jason: Like I said, I'm gonna try to hitch the local Z4 M Coupé for next weekend and get you some track videos with that. And if the E92 M3's weight is okay then I will definitely be doing that with it next summer... But much, much, much faster, and with much more tire smoke. Best regards, Jussi
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-26-2006, 11:49 AM	#11
meruyailir Lieutenant 42 Rep 470 Posts Drives: E90 325, E70 X5 3.0 Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Indonesia iTrader: (0)	Jussi, how fast is your 130, say 0-100kph? Is it faster than the 335?
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-26-2006, 12:38 PM	#12
Smoltz Lieutenant 15 Rep 471 Posts Drives: 04 Challenge Stradale + 02 M3 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Live Free or Die iTrader: (0)	Did you consider purchasing the current model Golf R32? If so, what made you go for the 130? -Adam
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-26-2006, 01:56 PM	#13
JK42 First Lieutenant 22 Rep 374 Posts Drives: E70 BMW X5 4.8i Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern Europe iTrader: (0)	Meruyailir: I haven't had a chance to measure the 0-100km/h after the ECU software was upgraded because the weather has been very wet all time the time after that. It was 5.73s 0-100 before the ECU upgrade, so I'm pretty sure it's faster than the 335i now, since the old time would beat the 335iA (Automatic) which I timed at exactly 5.77s 0-100 when I had it for test driving on the road and on the track. I haven't had a chance to try a manual 335i yet. Smoltz: No I did not consider purchasing the current model Golf R32 or anything else for that matter. I changed my old 330Ci for the 130i mainly to stop the depreciation of value of the old 330Ci since the new E92 Coupés came out, but also because it is a BMW and I only buy and use BMW, Ferrari, Maserati and RUF automobiles when it's on my dime. Since I had already driven the 130i over a year ago when it first came to the market, I knew that as a BMW it had excellent BMW-like handling thanks to the rack and pinion hydraulic steering (which the other option, Z4 Coupé 3.0si did not have), rear-wheel drive and the M Sport-package gives it a very high quality interior and exterior as well - unlike the very boring VW Golf that shares it's baseplate with "SkodAudis" A3. The 130i also has BMW's best straight six engine, the N52B30, which is incredible. It is the lightest six-cylinder engine in the world and you can read more about it here: http://www.germancarfans.com/print.cfm/ID/2040718.001 VAG groups products are not interesting to me in the least, as their engines are inferior and for hundreds of other reasons that I won't bother to even start listing here. Best regards, Jussi
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-26-2006, 04:47 PM	#15
Last E92 M3 Lieutenant Colonel 34 Rep 1,507 Posts Drives: BMW M3 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Virginia iTrader: (0)	fun stuff how come US dont import 1 series i'd love to have one of those
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-26-2006, 05:26 PM	#17
JK42 First Lieutenant 22 Rep 374 Posts Drives: E70 BMW X5 4.8i Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern Europe iTrader: (0)	Smoltz, The 1.8T was terrible in all of it's incarnations. The torque-curve combined with it's transmission final drive ratio made it a real pain in the ass to drive. The "new" 3.2L V6 is pathetic. It weighs more than BMW's 3.0L N52B30 but produces less power and torque. All of VAG-groups turbodiesel-engines have less power and torque in their class as similiar BMW turbodiesel-engines. Sometimes significantly, for example, the 3.0TDI only has 440Nm where BMW 530d's M57TUD30 has 500Nm, and soon the upgraded M57TU2D30 520Nm. Even the V10 Turbodiesel that they had on the much-hyped Touareg here has the same torque as BMW's M67D44 which is a 4.4L V8 turbodiesel. (750Nm of torque - earth-shattering in the V8, usual in an over 5-liter V10) And the M67D44 has a the torque on starting from a lower RPM and has it on wider range than the V10. There are other reasons to despise the VAG group, including the fact that they have completely raped most of the luxury brands, such as Lamborghini, that they've acquired. The Gallardo looks like a TT from inside, terrible cheap plastic. And these used to be cars that could compete with Ferrari in styling - not anymore. Audi is a glorified volkswagen/skoda which uses the same parts, engines, base plates and everything else - they're doing the same thing as Lexus - selling "premium" models to idiots who think that the brand means something, when in reality it's just a brand, doesn't tell you anything about the quality. And the RS4's V8 is horrible is what I've heard from a BMW tech who used to work in an Audi shop. It was apparently rushed to the market so fast that nearly every user has had to have theirs repaired and/or replaced within the first 3 months of ownership. And it still produces much less than the 4L V8 for the new M3 will produce. As you can read on my other posts, I'm predicting Audi will soon make a full-RWD car as they need to follow customer demand, and they have been making the 4WD Quattro cars more and more RWD-oriented, where they used to advertise 50:50 drive as the best there is (it isn't. even Michael Schumacher can't get a 50:50 distributed Quattro back into control once you lose control on a slippery, wet, icy or snowy surface.) So, I have my reasons not to even consider VAG products. They're just a pain in the ass, because too many people think they can be compared to BMW's, when they can't. Best regards, Jussi
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-26-2006, 05:28 PM	#18
JK42 First Lieutenant 22 Rep 374 Posts Drives: E70 BMW X5 4.8i Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern Europe iTrader: (0)	"The indicated performance" ? The 130i would probably be the only model that BMW would bring to the US market. It does Nordschleife in 8:35 (which your beloved VW R32 does in 8:55), same time as E36 M3's. Just 10 seconds less than E46 M3. That indicates a pretty fucking amazing performance - and no wonder, it was built and tested and born at the Nordschleife, just like all high-end BMW cars these days. Yes, I said high-end, that's because with BMW the engine-model determines the positioning of a model much more than the series. There are much crappier 3- and 5- series base models with much, much less features than the 130i. (And cheaper, too.) The 1-series based 2-door, convertible and coupé's will be brought to the us at least, 130i might, too. Some of the models may be called 2-series at that point. Best regards, Jussi
	Appreciate 0 Quote

10-27-2006, 02:06 AM	#22
replicat Lieutenant 25 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	Great debate gentlemen. Both of you guys had great points. In the end I had the scoring in favor of Jussi. The knowledge that man has is remarkable, the facts about different manufacturers keep pouring out. Also VAG is the GMC/FMC of Germany, they capitalize their profits on ideas that aren't theirs to begin with.
	Appreciate 0 Quote