[danimal]

Originally Posted by chris_1001

The government will give you the basics, but you have to do something with it or you deserve to fail…

I respect your point of view, but I think this is where we fundamentally disagree. It comes down to questions like, What motivates people? What effect does your parent's wealth and education have on your own chance of success? Are our public schools still good enough to prepare people to have successful happy lives?

My view is that most people are capable of finding their motivation, contributing to society, and living a rewarding life. But most people who don't get off to a good start or suffer a major setback will never catch up on their own. These people simply won't know how or won't be aware of how much better their life could be. These people don't deserve to fail, and they didn't let society down. Society let them down.

-Dan

[chris_1001]

Sorry for the delay, was in meetings and such...

Originally Posted by danimal

I respect your point of view, but I think this is where we fundamentally disagree. It comes down to questions like, What motivates people? What effect does your parent's wealth and education have on your own chance of success? Are our public schools still good enough to prepare people to have successful happy lives?

My view is that most people are capable of finding their motivation, contributing to society, and living a rewarding life. But most people who don't get off to a good start or suffer a major setback will never catch up on their own. These people simply won't know how or won't be aware of how much better their life could be. These people don't deserve to fail, and they didn't let society down. Society let them down.

-Dan

The system is flawed and biased towards the wealthy for sure… But even in a Communist society, those with connections do better than those who do not. There will always be some sort of inequity.

No, society did not let them down, their families did... It's not up to society to raise a child. But in certain cases, the government should help out by removing a child from a bad environment and placing them in a better one (i.e. a foster home.).

We can’t hold everybody’s hand, that’s not fair to the ones who work hard and do well. Would you give up your car and drive a lesser car so that a poor person could have a car? I would not… I get pi$$ed when I’m in the supermarket behind some overweight, dirty, unkempt woman with a dirty kid, who is just wearing a diaper and maybe a shirt is in front of me getting $200 worth of junk food and using food stamps. She is being rewarded… Sure something bad might have happened to her and the government came to her aid. But come on, take a shower, clean up your kid, get some healthy food and back on your feet. But instead, she she’ll do nothing, why should she…? The government is doing a great job for her and you and I are paying for it…

We don’t live in a fair and just society… But we do live in one that rewards hard work that’s when made this country great!!!!

Sure it would be nice if we could take care of every body and everyone had a equal upbringing and such…. But it does not work. Just look to any communist county, or even socialism… The communes of the 60’s 70’s failed…

Work hard do well and if you were dealt a bad hand as a kid, stop whining and do something about it…

I don’t think we’ll agree. But that’s fine... It’s your right to have an opinion. I know I might seem cold in my opinion, but I’m not a cold person. I’m just someone who hates where this country is headed… And it’s mainly because of all this Political Correctness stuff and the dumbing down of the people so that we all can feel good…

Shall we now venture on to standardized testing? (I was going to use that as another example of what I’m trying to say)

[danimal]

Originally Posted by chris_1001

Work hard do well and if you were dealt a bad hand as a kid, stop whining and do something about it…

"Stop whining and do something about it" = empty words. It's not a strategy. It's not motivational. It's not an instruction manual. It's like sitting your grandmother in front of a computer for the first time and asking her to do your taxes for you. You might as well just invite the IRS over to do your audit right now.

I was lucky enough to have parents who taught me well and made sure I received a good education. If I never knew anything but life on the street, do you really think someone telling me, "Well, you should try harder and pull yourself up by your bootstraps," would turn me around? Please! Empty words.

And, wouldn't you know it, less educated, less well off people tend to have more children, hence perpetuating their downward spiral. If someone doesn't step in to help these people, why would it ever stop? Because libertarians tell them to stop? Ha!

Finally, just because I don't think anyone should starve or be without shelter, education, or access to health care, I don't think it's quite fair to say I'm pushing communism. Oh, and I agree, the system is flawed, and I'm not thrilled with the direction this country is headed either, I just don't think libertarianism is the solution.

Originally Posted by chris_1001

Shall we now venture on to standardized testing? (I was going to use that as another example of what I’m trying to say)

What did you have in mind?

-Dan

[chris_1001]

I was not lucky parent wise, sure I came from a somewhat wealthy family. And my father went to some good schools and was an executive. BUT That is not why I got to where I am. I was thought basically nothing, school meant nothing, on and on... I will not go into the details (my life is not for public consumption) which would illustrate my point very well. So sadly I can only ask for your trust me that I had to do some of what I'm asking others to do...

Nothing extreme happened to me. But I worked hard as I was not content with what was dealt to me and such. I had absolutely no “edge”, no mentor, no support etc. So it was all me…

I wanted better and I worked for it. I did not whine and complain (too much), poor me and suck off the tit of the state. I did something about it. I saw what I wanted and went for it. I have achieved a lot under the circumstances and I’m proud of what I have done. Sure I stumbled a few times. But I do well and have a lot.

So what makes me better than anyone else? Why did I succeed? Only because I did not want to fail and settle. That came from within…

As for the poor having more kids… Sure, that’s one way to bump up your pay from the state.

I worked with a girl once many years ago. No the brightest granted, but not “ignorant”. She told me flat out she wanted a kid, no husband and go to on welfare. THAT WAS HER GOAL!!!!! (Yeah, I chewed her out) .

So you are helping people like be like that. Welfare is a helping hand, not a career…

I’m not calling you a columnist, maybe a socialist… The communist bit was an illustration for the sake of and example of that idea to the extreme and its failure.

Again, I must disagree, we needed to be tougher on people. We need people to fail. Let those who fail serve as a reminder to the rest of us that life is not fair, it’s hard and cruel. You have a choice and you have the tools. Do something or fail… See what happens when you give up…? Don’t!

Don’t you remember all the anti drug stuff? It never showed a yuppie by a BMW next to a hot chick saying “look at me I don’t do drugs and I have all this”? NO, you saw a crack whore behind bars with a deformed baby inset into the poster with the message, look what drugs do…

Most warnings like that hit home… seeing a homeless guy who stinks, who is disheveled and stumbles around drunk should serve as a warning… And if you want, please, invite him into your home, clean him, let him eat with you and your family. If that’s how you feel. NOTHING is wrong doing that if you choose, heck it’s a nice things to do. I chose to see him as a reminder that I need to do my best, take care of my family and be thankful I did what I did…

I’ll skip the standardized test for now, I need to get some stuff done… Remind me though…

[chris_1001]

Just thought of this added point... Going back to seatbelts, my friends and girlfriends and even this forum have done MORE to make me consider wearing a seatbelt then any law could ever do. So it did not take the government to help me, it took normal people who cared to help inform me…

AND the Drug Poster example above, if you want to get my attention on seatbelts, don’t show me a cop wit an attitude on a poster pointing at me saying click it or ticket, show me some me an accident scene and the results of no seatbelt…

Frankly, the cop poster makes me even more defiant…

[danimal]

Originally Posted by chris_1001

I was not lucky parent wise, sure I came from a somewhat wealthy family. And my father went to some good schools and was an executive. BUT That is not why I got to where I am...So what makes me better than anyone else? Why did I succeed? Only because I did not want to fail and settle. That came from within…

How do you know that came from within? Scientists are constantly arguing over whether things are nature versus nurture. You may have rebelled against your parents, used drugs, failed at school, shoplifted, gotten arrested, whatever, but none of that changes the fact that you didn't grow up on the street. Or you didn't grow up getting moved from one foster home to another. Or you didn't grow up with physical abuse or an uncle who molested you. So, you have no idea if it "came from within" or you just had to sow your wild oats for a while before you decided it was time to be an adult.

But neither your case--nor my case--are what matters. What matters is that we have a lot of people not doing very well. You want to let them suffer and wallow in their own self pity. I want to figure out what makes them tick and get them to realize their potential. I don't know how yet, but that's why we have science. There are some people who are great at motivating others. A good sports coach, for example. So, I know it's possible.

And it's a huge stretch to say that the flawed welfare system (yes, I really do agree it's flawed) is the primary cause of poverty. The primary cause is that people are born into poverty and people don't know any other way to live. Sure, some lucky people will find a way out, but the vast majority won't. Simple statistical fact.

And that's really my point. The empty words and slogans don't help. If you're not heartless, and you do care about people having a better life, then don't just say to them, "You need to try harder, and everything will be alright." As I said before, it's empty words. You have to train. You have to educate. You have to build incentives into the system. That's a better answer to me than letting people suffer. Better for them and better for society.

-Dan

[Year's_End]

Hmm...does this even pertain to 'other cars' anymore? I hate to interrupt, please, continue.

[danimal]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

Hmm...does this even pertain to 'other cars' anymore? I hate to interrupt, please, continue.

I was hoping it would fall under "General"

-Dan