[jb's335]

I wanted to share some pics of a project I have been working on in my spare time for a few weeks now. I have seen other setups like this utilizing the stock composite intake manifold on boosted applications, many of which held up very well to the pressures they were subjected to.

For those with questions on what kind of methods I used to fabricate this setup, it is basically a lot of patience and some steel impregnated super high strength epoxy. Setting the angles requires a drill press and patience. I also did not just go drilling willy-nilly, every injector is at the precise placement (in my opinion) for proper atomization before entering the cylinder.

I feel this is the only way to make sure every cylinder gets the proper benefits from methanol injection. Also it should help clean up the gunk that likes to accumulate on the intake valves. I plan on installing just the manifold with plugs in the injector bungs to make sure there are no leaks and to be sure everything will be good with boost, but I really have no worries about it holding together.

I will be running 2 pumps to 2 distribution blocks. 1 pump per 3 cylinders of course, supplying 3 250cc injectors. I plan on bridging the distribution blocks so the pressure will be equal to all 6 cylinders and thus make sure every cylinder is getting the same pressure and thus volume of methanol/water.

I will be purchasing the pumps/rest of the setup soon and will post up results. Let me know what you think!

[CPWINCH]

hmm, i hope you dynod before doing this.

[Rotorocious]

Puuuuurdy.
What's the pump(s) setup like?

[vasillalov]

Wow. So now instead of fixing 1 nozzle, you need to worry about 6 of them. And what happens when 1 nozzle gets plugged or starts dripping?... Once cylinder will knock and the rest will be OK?

I think your workmanship looks very good, but you've increased the complexity of your system by a lot!

[jb's335]

I was unaware there was such a problem with nozzles being plugged or dripping...

I will have to use solenoids in between the pump and nozzles so I figured this would help with dripping issues. And of course filters will be used...

I was really just trying to find another way for supplying fuel to the system. I hope to run a small shot of nitrous and then work my way up. I figured this direct port system would help add enough extra methanol to break the 600whp barrier.

[Syndicategt]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Wow. So now instead of fixing 1 nozzle, you need to worry about 6 of them. And what happens when 1 nozzle gets plugged or starts dripping?... Once cylinder will knock and the rest will be OK?

I think your workmanship looks very good, but you've increased the complexity of your system by a lot!

On the flip side, how can you ensure 1 nozzel is spraying equally across all cylinders? With his more "complex" setup, granted everything is in working order, you can assume all 6 cylinders will have equal flow.

My only question is, will this give enough time for the methanol to atomize?

[C4sF80M3]

Looks good. I like the overall concept, but I probably would have mounted fewer nozzles just to the back side of the throttle opening. Just to keep it simple with less risk of nozzle leakage. Or even mount them in the middle of plenum, so that if one fails that cylinder will still get some meth. All of this is useless information at this point though.

[cn555ic]

The nozzles need to be flushed to surface of the manifold. If you leave the nozzle the way they are in your pics it will not atomized right and hit the walls and form large droplets of meth/water

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

My only suggestion is if you went this far you mine as well upgrade to stainless steel lines and avoid any potential leaky fittings. Other then that some people have made some good points in regards to the "what if's" of 1 cylinder not spraying and atomization. If a small enough nozzle is used it should be fine but it wont do as much cooling compared to a nozzle placed right after the intercooler. So this setup is more ideal for octane, fuel, and combustion chamber cooling VS cooling the air charge.

I think an ideal setup would have 1 small nozzle post intercooler in conjunction with the direct port.

I'm not sure if anyone has done any bench flow tests on this manifold but if its already nearly = across all cylinders then this setup would be over kill.

I do know other platforms of cars that sprayed meth in a traditional sense (1 nozzle pre throttle body) and they ended up burning out 1 cylinder cause the intake manifold didnt flow = .

This setup will work for extra fueling but we hope to see some fueling upgrade in the extreme near future. Keyword is we hope.

[EastBayE90]

Originally Posted by Syndicategt

My only question is, will this give enough time for the methanol to atomize?

That's exactly what I was thinking. I applaud the craftsmanship but I believe this will not allow the methanol enough time to fully atomize. The further away from the throttle body as possible is the ideal location.(but after the intercooler). This will act as a fire hose just spraying lots of un-atomized methanol directly into the ports. Yes this may help with carbon buildup but as far as performance I'm not sure it will do the job. Interested in seeing your results. Dynos to compare?

[Tzu]

Agreed with Jeff. At the cold side of the intercooler the meth would atomize and then saturate the charge air after vaporizing. Near perfectly equal distribution.

The closer you go to the manifold, the better the atomization (nozzle) would have to be and ideally, would be a spraybar in the centre of the volumetric flow. This is probably not common due to any impending damage condition to the spraybar, sending material into the chamber. Therefore, flush nozzles work just fine for this car, with fairly equal cyl-cyl distribution.

[stevetx77]

I have a concern about the "steel impregnated high strength epoxy" you used. I'm not saying this is what you used but, is it JB Weld? That's exactly what that product is. I work with epoxies, adhesives, and polymers and I hope this holds together for you. Epoxies (thermosets) don't bond to polymers (polyethylene, polypropylene, i.e. plastics). This means that there is no real adhesion/bond between the two different materials. It may hold something together that isn't going to see any force or pressure but, I would be concerned about those nozzles blowing right out when under boost. I'm not bashing you... just concerned of what might happen. Wish you the best and the setup looks nice!

[cn555ic]

I think a setup like this is useful for nitrous and not as functional as methanol injection.

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by stevetx77

I have a concern about the "steel impregnated high strength epoxy" you used. I'm not saying this is what you used but, is it JB Weld? That's exactly what that product is. I work with epoxies, adhesives, and polymers and I hope this holds together for you. Epoxies (thermosets) don't bond to polymers (polyethylene, polypropylene, i.e. plastics). This means that there is no real adhesion/bond between the two different materials. It may hold something together that isn't going to see any force or pressure but, I would be concerned about those nozzles blowing right out when under boost. I'm not bashing you... just concerned of what might happen. Wish you the best and the setup looks nice!

They do sell expoxies that weld onto plastic...Its not clear but in a black finish.

[EastBayE90]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

I think a setup like this is useful for nitrous and not as functional as methanol injection.

+1 this would be great for Nitrous.

[Brey335i]

I hope you have a few thousand set aside for a new motor before you try this. That's all I'm gonna say...

[David1]

Will not clean the valves either. Good looking piece of work though.

[DefactoM6]

Your workmanship looks great, and I love the idea and dedication, but CN555IC makes a very valid point, you are going to want the outer edge of the spray pattern to travel perpendicular to the surface upon which you are mounting them to avoid spraying onto the surface and having large droplets/crappy atomization. I would use aquamist/FJO solenoids/controllers and vary the solenoid hz based on the DME's injector DC%+nitrous activation to properly take advantage of the benefits of running direct port (using it as a fuel). Also, with so many places for things to leak, I would run -AN+stainless fittings/tube, not to mention that it will be a cleaner looking install.

Another thing I'd be curious about is how the DME will react, given that the IAT sensor will be blind to the meth being injected, so I would imagine that you would see the DME pulling timing, even though you are doing much more to actually influence cooling/combustion process than anyone else with a traditionally mounted meth kit... Also...1500+ML/min is a whooole lotta meth! With a single pump pressurizing 3x 250s, you are going to have more flow than someone running dual CM10s.

Given the closed loop fueling system on this car, and the vastly different stoich AFR of meth vs. gas, I would be a bit concerned about the car possibly running lean with that much meth. Not to mention that if you're running nitrous, having that much more meth sitting on the hot valves increases your likelihood of a nitrous backfire that will blow your work to smithereens.

Personally, I would return all of the 250ml nozzles and order 8x180ml nozzles, get the devilsown 8 port distribution block (which has two inlet ports, so you can just shoot both pumps to this, 1 less part in the mix, and no need to bridge), mount the distribution block and both solenoids on the bottom side of the intake manifold, run 6 to each cylinder, then mount the two extra 180s in the traditional charge pipe location. That way you have your direct port meth (and shooting 1080ml direct port is equivalent to spraying larger volumes in the CP), the DME then sees the reduced IAT and times accordingly, and it's a small element of insurance in the event of one of the direct port injectors clogging, you will still have some meth traveling to the cylinder to protect it.

*edit* Jeff and everyone else beat me to my statements before I could hit send, that's what I get for posting while working... :P

[cn555ic]

Good advice for sure. Installing a nozzle prior to the charge temp sensor to benefit cooling effect in which Dme will see is the best setup and if it means running another dedicated pump for that one nozzle in the chargepipe, thats what is needed to assure equal pressure between the setup of 3 nozzles per pumP

[Mike323]

The workmanship looks just great, but like a few others, I have doubts about how well you are going to atomise with this set up. I wish you all the best & let us all know how it went.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

I am concerned its too much meth so close to the cylinder. Like suggested otherwise a smaller nozzle might not be a bad idea, and I like Jeffs idea of adding a seventh nozzle post FMIC as well, maybe a CM5

Mike

[cn555ic]

3 pumps 7 nozzles 3 solenoids. 3 relays and a partridge in a pair tree!! This is going to be one of the most expensive methanol setups on a N54!!