[Ingeniator]

Anyone running super high octane with a JB4. I'm looking at picking up some high octane for the Sled and the dealer is offering me a great deal on MS109 if I buy 3 mini-drums. What blends are you running and what maps.

VP Racing Fuels

[HeavyMetalRocker]

If your gonna run around with 109 in the tank, throw it on map 7 and hold on! Assuming you have supporting mods!

[Ingeniator]

Originally Posted by HeavyMetalRocker

If your gonna run around with 109 in the tank, throw it on map 7 and hold on! Assuming you have supporting mods!

I still have to tear stuff down to see what the previous owner has put in this thing. The 109 is for my sled but they are willing to give me a ridiculous deal if I buy 3 drums. I can't use that much in the sled so I might mix some in for the car. I'm just wondering what people target for octane numbers before wasting money. I can get 94 for 1.35/liter right now and I can get MS109 for under 2 bucks a liter.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Ingeniator

I'm just wondering what people target for octane numbers before wasting money.

100.

[HeavyMetalRocker]

Originally Posted by Ingeniator

I still have to tear stuff down to see what the previous owner has put in this thing. The 109 is for my sled but they are willing to give me a ridiculous deal if I buy 3 drums. I can't use that much in the sled so I might mix some in for the car. I'm just wondering what people target for octane numbers before wasting money. I can get 94 for 1.35/liter right now and I can get MS109 for under 2 bucks a liter.

There's guys that have run the full 109. Even with the e85 mixes you'll see 98-101 depending on the e85 and the amount you mix. It's really gonna depend on what the car has done. Intake and downpipes mostly!

[Mit_Boost]

You can run whatever octane you want, you just need to make tune adjustments (all timing after you've hit that 18/19 psi peak on stock turbos) so you're maximizing the performance potential.


I believe 109 is the highest unleaded octane, so above that there's still gains to be made but you'll be running leaded fuel and killing your o2 sensors.

[Ingeniator]

Has anyone had any issues running oxygenated fuel? I imagine because we are DI/FI the gains will be less than I'm used to on carbs. It is sometimes hard on O2 sensors but location has a big effect on this.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by Ingeniator

Has anyone had any issues running oxygenated fuel? I imagine because we are DI/FI the gains will be less than I'm used to on carbs. It is sometimes hard on O2 sensors but location has a big effect on this.

Just run E85 blends. The ethanol concentration will allow you to run a lot more aggressive timing, E85 is very cheap (vs race gas), and it'll burn cooler so you don't have to worry about timing being reduced mid-pull.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by HeavyMetalRocker

Even with the e85 mixes you'll see 98-101 depending on the e85 and the amount you mix.

Actually, straight E85 (non-racing pump E85) has an octane value (R+M/2) of 94-96 octane, depending on the time of year that you buy it. The winter blends contain less than 85% ethanol.

[Ingeniator]

E85 is not available in Canada from the pumps. I think I could order C85 from VP or something simillar but I'm buying race gas for my sled anyway.

[spinall4335xi]

I run 104 and e85 mix and map 5-7 it's a monster!!!!
You are limited on how much e85 you can use, without being protuned.
50/50 is awesome.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Actually, straight E85 (non-racing pump E85) has an octane value (R+M/2) of 94-96 octane, depending on the time of year that you buy it. The winter blends contain less than 85% ethanol.

There's a lack of consistency with what E85's actual octane rating is, what can be agreed upon is that you can make a lot more power, often spool earlier (with turbos), make much more TQ all at a fraction of a cost with Ethanol based fuels. Ethanol sold from a pump must legally be above 70% ethanol at all times.

BUT that does not diminish the value of pump E85, as there is a local Porsche making just over 1,000 WHP on $3.65 a gal, pump E85. The biggest "advantage" to Race E85 (or E98) is that you are getting exactly that ethanol concentration, but the power difference isn't as drastic as 93 vs E85.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

There's a lack of consistency with what E85's actual octane rating is, what can be agreed upon is that you can make a lot more power, often spool earlier (with turbos), make much more TQ all at a fraction of a cost with Ethanol based fuels. Ethanol sold from a pump must legally be above 70% ethanol at all times.

IMHO, it's typically 95 octane or less. Blending that in with 93, or 91 octane, and running a map with aggressive timing, and you're relying on your knock sensors.

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

BUT that does not diminish the value of pump E85, as there is a local Porsche making just over 1,000 WHP on $3.65 a gal, pump E85. The biggest "advantage" to Race E85 (or E98) is that you are getting exactly that ethanol concentration, but the power difference isn't as drastic as 93 vs E85.

Pump E85 simply was not intended for non flex fuel vehicles, and does not contain any anti-corrosives. Long term use down the road will lead to corrosion of fuel, and engine components. Folks should really be using Race E85, or E85R. That at least contains anti-corrosives, and is blended with race gas (100 octane) instead of regular (87 octane), like pump E85.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

IMHO, it's typically 95 octane or less. Blending that in with 93, or 91 octane, and running a map with aggressive timing, and you're relying on your knock sensors.

IF you've spoken with a tuner at length, they'll have no problem explaining you that it's very difficult to knock on E85. And any good tuner creating a map for you will know how to find MBT and what the capabilities of your setup are, thus NOT relying on your knock sensors.

If we were to go by octane ratings, then can anyone explain to me why several pump E85 cars are making the same (if not more) power than cars running C16 or VP Import?

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Pump E85 simply was not intended for non flex fuel vehicles, and does not contain any anti-corrosives. Long term use down the road will lead to corrosion of fuel, and engine components. Folks should really be using Race E85, or E85R. That at least contains anti-corrosives, and is blended with race gas (100 octane) instead of regular (87 octane), like pump E85.

Also false. Every mainstream fuel in the United States on average has 10% ethanol present to keep emissions (because ethanol burns cleaner than petroleum) & cost down -- Concentration can vary as low as 5% and as high as 15%). Most modern cars are built to spec and are not susceptible to ethanol related damages on any parts, and for E85 to be sold at the pump it must not be able to do any damage to FlexFuel vehicles (anticorrosives, fuel stabilizers, etc are inherently present). What will probably happen on a car not approved for E85 use is max out your fueling system, as it requires an additional 30-40% fuel to run. In Brazil, where BMW sells the same cars, the ethanol concentration is a legally mandated minimum of 25% (and E100 is sold at the pump).

If you want to comb the internet, their is a forum detailing long term ethanol use on an EVO that was not built to E85 spec. It details a complete tear down of the fueling system & motor. It turned out that everything looked more "healthy" and actually visually cleaner. If I do find it, I'll make sure to post it up

[Mit_Boost]

Dated, but fast forward to 50 seconds in

Honestly, our biggest "concern" with long term E85 use is how the DI injectors will hold up.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

If we were to go by octane ratings, then can anyone explain to me why several pump E85 cars are making the same (if not more) power than cars running C16 or VP Import?

Those cars are running 100% E85, on mostly older vehicles, like supras. They also run straight C16. Obviously not a dude who cares about his engine long term, cuz the car is already old. Note these are not E85 blends, like folks are running on here, and which you claim won't knock, even though we see tons of timing corrections until way past 50% E85.

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Also false. Every mainstream fuel in the United States on average has 10% ethanol present to keep emissions (because ethanol burns cleaner than petroleum) & cost down -- Concentration can vary as low as 5% and as high as 15%). Most modern cars are built to spec and are not susceptible to ethanol related damages on any parts, and for E85 to be sold at the pump it must not be able to do any damage to FlexFuel vehicles (anticorrosives, fuel stabilizers, etc are inherently present). What will probably happen on a car not approved for E85 use is max out your fueling system, as it requires an additional 30-40% fuel to run. In Brazil, where BMW sells the same cars, the ethanol concentration is a legally mandated minimum of 25% (and E100 is sold at the pump).

10% E85, or E10 sold at the pump, is blended with anti-corrosives, equivalent to the 10% concentration of ethanol. Also from the refineries to the tranks, and even the pump, E10 is kept separate from gasoline without ethanol, to avoid contamination. Brazil has 25% ethanol or E25, true. However, Brazil, like the US has both flex fuel, and non flex fuel cars, and thus has anti corrosives blended in to counteract the 25% ethanol.

These two products E10, and E25 are very different from just blending your own gasohol. When you do that you you put in more ethanol than the anti corrosives can counteract. And if the gasoline isn't blended with ethanol to begin with, then you have no anti corrosives at all, in a non-flex fuel car.

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

If you want to comb the internet, their is a forum detailing long term ethanol use on an EVO that was not built to E85 spec. It details a complete tear down of the fueling system & motor. It turned out that everything looked more "healthy" and actually visually cleaner. If I do find it, I'll make sure to post it up

Of course, you can even find motors with long term use of meth, and they look very "clean" on the inside. However, this does not mean that it isn't erroding the metals. If the flex fuel badge is meaningless like you are claiming, then vehicle manufacturers wouldn't waste all that time and money keeping all their vehicle parts different between their flex fuel and non-flex fuel lines, and especially won't waste their time "re-enforcing" all those metal components for a life time use of alcohol. Think about it man.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Note these are not E85 blends, like folks are running on here, and which you claim won't knock, even though we see tons of timing corrections until way past 50% E85.

If your tune is crap, you'll see tons of timing corrections on any fuel from 91 to C16. That doesn't prove anything. The ProEFI EMS, which automatically can adjust the tune for varying ethanol concentration (10% to 100%). What the take away should be, is as ethanol drops the tune becomes less aggressive (lower boost/timing/etc). This is no different then the N54, and tuning a map for 93 octane and then one for a 45% ethanol blend.

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

However, Brazil, like the US has both flex fuel, and non flex fuel cars, and thus has anti corrosives blended in to counteract the 25% ethanol.

Honestly, it's mind boggling that you don't think there are anti-corrosives already present in pump E85.

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

If the flex fuel badge is meaningless like you are claiming, then vehicle manufacturers wouldn't waist all that time and money keeping all their vehicle parts different between their flex fuel and non-flex fuel lines, and especially won't waste their time "re-enforcing" all those metal components for a life time use of alcohol. Think about it man.

The biggest difference between the normal & FlexFuel vehicles are the fueling system (the pumps are build to E85 spec) & the software (specifically the ethanol sensors & tune that will adjust for any level of ethanol concentration). Once again, the N54 sold is Brazil is no different (just like every other BMW) than the BMW sold in Germany or United States. The biggest adjustments are the tune (primarily the fueling tables) and that's it. It's still the same fuel lines, pumps, injectors, engine, etc etc etc

There are a very decent portion of forum members here that are running E85 (straight and mixed) as their DD fuel. And there are also performance cars running E85 as their only fuel on several platforms (EVO, Supra, Porsches, GTR, TT Lambo, etc) that have seen no long term negative impacts to running E85.


Unless you have any concrete data or proof, please stop trying to pretend there's smoke where there's no fire. Looking through some of your older post, it's clear you just don't like E85. There's nothing wrong with that, but stop trying to convince people it's "bad" when you have no legitimate proof.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

If your tune is crap, you'll see tons of timing corrections on any fuel from 91 to C16. That doesn't prove anything. The ProEFI EMS, which automatically can adjust the tune for varying ethanol concentration (10% to 100%). What the take away should be, is as ethanol drops the tune becomes less aggressive (lower boost/timing/etc). This is no different then the N54, and tuning a map for 93 octane and then one for a 45% ethanol blend.

Dude adding 30% of a fuel that is 95 octane (Assuming you bought E85 in the summer) to one that has 93 octane does not even result in a fuel that is 94 octane.

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Honestly, it's mind boggling that you don't think there are anti-corrosives already present in pump E85.

That doesn't make any sense. The fuel is separate at the pump, and colored/stickered different from gas or diesel.

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

The biggest difference between the normal & FlexFuel vehicles are the fueling system (the pumps are build to E85 spec) & the software (specifically the ethanol sensors & tune that will adjust for any level of ethanol concentration).

That's just NOT true at all! all the metal components in the engine are 100% different. from the pistons, to the rods, and bearings, it is all corrosion treated metals. Go ask your local flex fuel car dealer. Go to the parts manager, and he will show you the different part numbers for all engine components in any two vehicles.

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Once again, the N54 sold is Brazil is no different (just like every other BMW) than the BMW sold in Germany or United States. The biggest adjustments are the tune (primarily the fueling tables) and that's it. It's still the same fuel lines, pumps, injectors, engine, etc etc etc

Look E25 in brazil, and E10 in america, are the same thing: a product! It is specially blended at the refinery and all lines, tankers, and even storage units are kept separate from non-ethanolated gasoline, all the way to the pump. This is despite the fact that they are blended with anti-corrosives.

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

There are a very decent portion of forum members here that are running E85 (straight and mixed) as their DD fuel. And there are also performance cars running E85 as their only fuel on several platforms (EVO, Supra, Porsches, GTR, TT Lambo, etc) that have seen no long term negative impacts to running E85.

They can do what they want, but the fact remains that they can hold no one liable for any damage that occurs long term. Not the vehicle manufacturers, nor the gas stations. All the gas stations that they are buying their fuel from have labelled their product in accordance with the law. Call and ask them, and they have extensive brochures filled with reasons why you should never ever put E85 in your non-flex fuel car.

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Unless you have any concrete data or proof, please stop trying to pretend there's smoke where there's no fire. Looking through some of your older post, it's clear you just don't like E85. There's nothing wrong with that, but stop trying to convince people it's "bad" when you have no legitimate proof.

This is a BMW forum, so we assume that you were sure you had the appropriate finances to own an expensive luxury vehicle. You could afford the maintenance, aftermarket parts, and labor required to modify your car. Why when it comes to octane, are you looking for a cheap route? Can't afford the $7:21 for 100 octane, and want to buy E85 for $3:50? Then how do you hope to replace your driver side door mirror for $800 when it breaks? Think that price is a little too high, and that such a component should actually cost $150 max in a regular car? Then you definitely bought more car than you can afford.

[pwr hungry]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

This is a BMW forum, so we assume that you were sure you had the appropriate finances to own an expensive luxury vehicle. You could afford the maintenance, aftermarket parts, and labor required to modify your car. Why when it comes to octane, are you looking for a cheap route? Can't afford the $7:21 for 100 octane, and want to buy E85 for $3:50? Then how do you hope to replace your driver side door mirror for $800 when it breaks? Think that price is a little too high, and that such a component should actually cost $150 max in a regular car? Then you definitely bought more car than you can afford.

I'm not sure where you automatically get someone not being able to afford to own their car because they want to use a cheaper, and proven, alternative??? You pretty much derailed yourself on that one dude.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Unless you have any concrete data or proof, please stop trying to pretend there's smoke where there's no fire. Looking through some of your older post, it's clear you just don't like E85. There's nothing wrong with that, but stop trying to convince people it's "bad" when you have no legitimate proof.

I'm anti-Pump E85, not E85R, which is what folks should be using. E85R is made by VP racing, and others for your modified Non-flex fuel car. Why use it over pump E85?

1. It's blended with anti-corrosives equivalent to the 85% ethanol.

2. It's blended using 100 octane race gas, not 87 regular like pump E85

3. It's ethanol content is always 85%, unlike pump E85, which even in the summer, maxes out at 83% ethanol.

People on here won't ever use E85R though because it's priced the same as race gas. They'd rather pull up to their local gas station in a BMW, and pump in cheap, government subsidized flex fuel.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by pwr hungry

I'm not sure where you automatically get someone not being able to afford to own their car because they want to use a cheaper, and proven, alternative??? You pretty much derailed yourself on that one dude.

It all boils down to the economics of octane. See post #20.

[pwr hungry]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

It all boils down to the economics of octane. See post #20.

I don't currently use e85, and I can more than afford my car. So, if I saw enough evidence to use pump e85 I would be more than happy to save some money dd'ing on that and then using race gas or e85R at the "track". I think it boils down to convenience for people more than anything.