[TodmordenLad]

I've owned six non-M BMWs over several decades, mainly 6cyl estates. My last BMW was an F36 440i with performance pack. Lovely drivetrain with very average handling dynamics.
The current non-M range leaves me cold tbh, mainly because of the styling, inflated prices and the bloated weight of the cars. I'm driving an Audi estate for the time being. If I were to buy a BMW again, it would probably be a M340i Touring but I'm in no rush.

[tracer bullet]

One of the BMW higher ups long ago said they could do the things we're sad about losing, but they just didn't want to, because most people aren't like us. Most people don't want steering feedback and such.

My 2025 Manual Z4 shows it's built and awaiting a carrier. I'd wager it'll be the last BMW I ever buy, but of course I'm just predicting the future and so who knows. Inline 6, RWD, manual, smaller / lighter relatively speaking, and so on. A dash that doesn't contain a humongous screen. Supposedly notchy shifter, supposedly some actual steering feedback built in. Once these things are no longer available, I don't really see the point in sticking with the brand. For me anyhow, I couldn't warm up to the M2 and though I know the M3 / 4's are beasts they're just too big for my taste.

They're selling tons of cars, so it's good for the company. Of course they might sell more cars if things were different, but who knows. I somewhat doubt it, I'm quite sure they have done more research on it than any of us here.

[allinon72]

BMW has evolved from a manufacturer of sports cars, offering a handful of models that were all sporty in their own ways, to a manufacturer that wants to provide a model to ALL types of buyer. It's an easy-to-understand business model on the surface, unfortunately for the casual BMW enthusiast that had experience with past heritage, it means you're going to have to PONY UP to get a higher trim level, whereas in the past even the lesser models did everything well for their time period.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by / / / M3

I had a G21 320d as a rental in Europe last summer and though it was pretty decent for what it was - a base model with a 4-cylinder diesel engine. It didn't feel any less of a driver's car than a base model E90 or F30 to me. I also drove an M340i and while no M3, that car was a lot of fun to drive (and a huge upgrade over a base 3-series).

I completely agree with you. I don’t identify with the OP’s complaint. I’ve driven many G20 3ers and owned a G20 M340i and they all had the BMW feel and drive I expected them to have. I did choose to go back to an F30 340i M Sport, but that was because the G20 equipment was too techie for me and I preferred the more old school controls in the F30, not because of the driving dynamics. I will say this though, I also like the size of the F30 better than the G20. It wasn’t a weight issue for me. It was the overall size of the car. The G20 was just a little too big for a 3er for me.

[Mavus]

Go drive on of these with I6 and sport pkg or upgraded suspension

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by MJBO

Tell me you haven't driven a G8x without telling me you haven't driven a G8x

This is laughable. Keep drinking the kool aid from the G8x section of the forum.

[/ / / M3]

Originally Posted by Mavus

Go drive on of these with I6 and sport pkg or upgraded suspension

I remember driving my dad's E90 335i back in the day. It was a nice car, when it wasn't in the shop getting HPFP replaced for the Nth time.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by / / / M3

I remember driving my dad's E90 335i back in the day. It was a nice car, when it wasn't in the shop getting HPFP replaced for the Nth time.

yeah the first few years of N54 had those issues but BMW covered replacement until 120K mi and continued to develop tt engines thru customer feedback/issues many parts were changed to improve reliability.

the one above is 2011 N55.

[Efthreeoh]

Blame it on computer-aided driving systems. There is no longer the need to balance the car with proper placement of components, suspension geometry, and chassis stiffness (in the correct places), and somewhat EPS. The computer keeps the car on the road rather than the chassis design. BMWs used to give the driver feedback as limits approached, now the computer takes care of inputs, so no feedback is necessary.

[Shaw]

Ever since the head of design moved to Audi, a few years back, the design went into the ditch…
On the other hand Audi has been leapfrogging on design.
They better figure this out soon or the trades keep rising.

Originally Posted by lowrydr310

I'm not even talking about styling, though you could argue they continue to go down the wrong direction in that area too. I get it, they need to push boundaries. In some cases their 'edgy' initially unaccepted design language becomes mainstream and eventually looks good. (Though certain models like the pre-LCI E65 Bangle 7 will never look good no matter how hard one tries.)

I'm talking about the driving dynamics, and even the interior styling and materials. I've driven all sorts of non-M BMWs and they all have that distinct BMW feel. Excellent handling. Nice interior that is definitively BMW, like if you were to hide the badges and put a stranger in it, you'd still know it's a BMW.

I recently rented a G21 LCI 320d for a week. It definitely looks like a BMW, and I even LIKE the styling of the wagon over the sedan. But driving the thing? Sure it was comfortable and no real complaints, just that it didn't *feel* like a BMW. You could put Kia badges inside this thing and I wouldn't know the difference. Just soft and boring. No different than any other car on the market. No soul. I know the F30 gets a lot of hate for starting that downward path, but a friend of mine has a F30 328i with Dinan suspension bits and even that car felt more BMW like than the current G20.

The engine was nice, plenty of power for everyday driving and I averaged just over 50MPG though it was very light driving, nothing sporting or aggressive. They say nobody wants small Diesels in the USA... I do.

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by Shaw

Ever since the head of design moved to Audi, a few years back, the design went into the ditch…
On the other hand Audi has been leapfrogging on design.
They better figure this out soon or the trades keep rising.

Audi builds a cheaper car, sells it for less than their BMW target models, and VW incentivizes the lease payments to make for even more attractive monthlies than BMW. Doesn't make them better, but in a market where people buy based on promoting an image for themselves as opposed to "sheer driving pleasure", it can drive sales.

The time they are a'changing!

[lowrydr310]

Originally Posted by Shaw

Ever since the head of design moved to Audi, a few years back, the design went into the ditch…
On the other hand Audi has been leapfrogging on design.
They better figure this out soon or the trades keep rising.

Interesting you bring this up. I rented an A3 last weekend which is far from Audi's top model. Not a bad car to drive, somewhat sporty, engine was pleasantly powerful for the car, transmission was amazing.. nice to look at too, but no E90 handling. Push it a little in the turns and it was quite clear it's a FWD car.

Compared to that G20 rental I posted about (basic 320d) I'd take the G20 any day based on driving feel. But the Audi interior layout was nice, much more premium feeling than the G2x Bimmer.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by alex2364

This is laughable. Keep drinking the kool aid from the G8x section of the forum.

You sound mad. Don't let your feelings get in the way of facts.

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by mirob

You sound mad. Don't let your feelings get in the way of facts.

Facts:

1. Forget any concept of weight saving after Albert Biermann left. It's close to 2 tons now.
2. ZF auto is a downgrade and shifts slower than DCT.
3. It's butt ugly to majority of people.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by alex2364

Facts:

1. Forget any concept of weight saving after Albert Biermann left. It's close to 2 tons now.
2. ZF auto is a downgrade and shifts slower than DCT.
3. It's butt ugly to majority of people.

Debunking your opinions disguised as facts would be a waste of time. Here's an actual fact for you - I'd drink a gallon of Kool Aid before participating in the F8X circle jerk you're part of. That's a fact.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by lowrydr310

Interesting you bring this up. I rented an A3 last weekend which is far from Audi's top model. Not a bad car to drive, somewhat sporty, engine was pleasantly powerful for the car, transmission was amazing.. nice to look at too, but no E90 handling. Push it a little in the turns and it was quite clear it's a FWD car.

Compared to that G20 rental I posted about (basic 320d) I'd take the G20 any day based on driving feel. But the Audi interior layout was nice, much more premium feeling than the G2x Bimmer.

BMW always has the most businesslike, Teutonic interior between them, Mercedes, and Audi. Feeling ultimately luxurious just isn’t their thing and I doubt it ever will be.

[Dr Thrillride]

Originally Posted by Clark_Kent

Several cars, but for purposes of this discussion a Porsche GT car.

Why do you stay?

[richpat69]

Originally Posted by Clark_Kent

BMW has evolved into a mass market auto manufacturer. At this juncture they're not much different than Volkswagen or Toyota in the sense that they're widely available, offer several vehicle options, and are designed for mass appeal. While I enjoyed the few M cars I owned, I will never buy another BMW.

I recently replaced a 2020 M550 with a 2024 540i X. While I admit things have changed, if you think that the current product is on a par with a Toyota or a VW, you likely haven't driven a new BMW or a new Toyota or VW.

I can't say I'm happy with some of the changes, but the new 540 is a very nice vehicle.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

The entire G-series is off the table IMO.

Gone are the glory days of beauty and driving dynamics, it's all fat-cat numbers now. Keep it.

I was watching an old Savagegeese review the other day on the E39 M5 and the reviewer was shocked by how soft the M5 felt and how much body roll it had. It was a pretty nice example, too.

IIRC, he rattled off that saying about never meeting one's heroes.

Good memories are often better than the actual experiences were.

And, yes, that applies to pretty much everything.

[scotthilly]

Originally Posted by Neusser

I was watching an old Savagegeese review the other day on the E39 M5 and the reviewer was shocked by how soft the M5 felt and how much body roll it had. It was a pretty nice example, too.

IIRC, he rattled off that saying about never meeting one's heroes.

Good memories are often better than the actual experiences were.

And, yes, that applies to pretty much everything.

Most things… but not BMW’s, lol. Also, yeah, the body roll of a 25 year old car probably will be worse than today. It’s about the bmw brand vs competitors, not the e39 being objectively or subjectively better than a F90.

Look at something like Car and Driver 10 best. The 3 series and sometimes 5 series were a mainstay for literally decades. Left with F30 and never came back. These cars were nearly all heralded for being incredible even when new. Now, the only bmw with that designation is maybe the X5?

BMW back then was like Porsche. Expensive, but truly a step above competitors. I have more respect for Porsche as a brand now sticking with their commitment to enthusiasts than I did even 10 years ago. As brands like BMW become mass market, they’re less desirable and lose what made them special.

I can’t think of a better example than the E90 M3. Car and Driver did an article comparing it and 911 and didn’t pick a favorite, but effectively said they’re both incredible and that many things (steering feel, rode/handling, engine) were interchangeable. I’m laughing just typing that out now - imagine a G80 vs any new 911, it wouldn’t even be CLOSE. Literally not even the same sentence.

As an aside, I think the Macan is more fun (better steering, more rotation, better ride) than an M340i. I would also take my e90 335 over any bmw made since except a f8x.


OP is right. BMW is still a good manufacturer but not at all special like they once were - that specialness was from the feeling, not from numbers.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by Neusser

I was watching an old Savagegeese review the other day on the E39 M5 and the reviewer was shocked by how soft the M5 felt and how much body roll it had. It was a pretty nice example, too.

IIRC, he rattled off that saying about never meeting one's heroes.

Good memories are often better than the actual experiences were.

And, yes, that applies to pretty much everything.

I agree with that, but only an idiot would look at yesterday through today's lens, it doesn't work that way. In its time it was a marvel for the size, and the weight.

You can't replace the feeling of lightness, the way the cars move, the inertia, so the G-Series is literally stuck adding power and tech (re: weight) to make it "better."

As Bruce Lee would say..."no thanks."

[BMthusiast]

I think for new customers BMW offers lots of enticing cars, which is why they're doing pretty well in the market. For those of us that have been into BMWs for awhile it's felt like a progressive dilution overall. Aesthetically, drive feel, and the way ///M has become a marketing aspect instead of a true designation. These electric cars with ///M badges literally have nothing M-tuned about them other than having adaptive M suspension and M-sport brakes. When I test drove the i4 M50 no part of me felt a motorsport thrill even when flooring it. Out of the entire fleet right now there are a few cars I'd consider getting, but don't have much of an urge to because the test drives didn't surpass my current F80 experience. I haven't test driven the G87 yet though.