[ChiTownM]

Originally Posted by Cuz5150

All I gotta say to BMW is the M2 better Be Special and Priced right or else the masses will exit, and Never return. $85K M3-M4 just will not fly these days.
As of now, holding on to my M3's. If the M2 is a bust or too expensive....corvette, Mustang, camaro used GT-r here i come

Word.

That's why the e92 M3 may be my last BMW unless the M2 hits the mark and is in the right price segment. I just need a solid chassis with an engine that pulls strong and old world steering....and maybe a manual transmission that is smooth for once in a BMW.

Let's be honest, BMW a is not the enthusiast brand it used to be and their record sales give them enough reasons to continue down that path.

[mikal7]

Where the hell is everyone from the other thread about the Toyota / BMW sports car when I asked "hey guys any idea on pricing?" And they all insulted me saying "BMW shouldn't worry about pricing just build the best car possible!"

I hope those people read this thread and can see how important of a factor "pricing" is to a sports car.

Sincerely, someone who drives.

[Asbjorn]

Well, to me this makes sense. These categories probably contain the best selling roadsters:

Category 1) Affordable entry level fun
Category 2) Luxury to show off and cruise in
Category 3) Cool track-ready performance, again to show off and, well, show off some more, because the track is too far away...

The SLK, TT and Z4 are not trying to be the best within any of the above. They fall somewhere in-between.

The buyers left in the market after 2009, probably want cars that take things a bit further within the above categories. Like the F-type. The SL. The SLS. The Boxter etc. Cars which fall in-between, like the Z4, do not immediately make sense. Why would you want a 2 seater roadster which isn't making a serious attempt at being affordable, luxurious/classy or performance oriented? It is not much use for anything else but showing off and driving for fun anyway.

Personally I chose the Z4 because it was easy access to 400hp and the lightest convertible in the BMW lineup. Still lighter than the current M4 as well. It is sporty without being too uncomfortable and the de-catted exhaust sounds great to me. It does both longer road trips and drifting on weekends very well. You just need to keep RFTs and tracks away from it. Still it fails to define itself as a leading roadster within any class.

BMW should focus more on explaining what the Z-brand is, and why it is as attractive and meaningful as the X-brand, M-brand and i-brand, and how it is a special class of its own compared to other roadsters.

[Vector Pilot]

Most of the comments posted with limited exception reenforces what BMW is saying, sports cars are currently not popular. In the U.S. the Sting Ray, the only true American sports car, is being purchased by aging baby boomers, Europeans do not buy sports cars because they're not practical and throughout the world Porsche remains the benchmark. Consumers preferring high performance cars have more choices, look no further than what BMW offers, so the market shrinks. For the record I currently lease a 2014 E89/28i, agree it's not true sports car, it serves no real purpose, perhaps too expensive, but other than that it's fun to drive and for those two reasons it's purely a self-serving, discretionary purchase. IMO that's not a large market.

[Kaxon]

I agree with the general tone of this thread - although the sports car market has shrunk some, the real problem is what BMW is offering. I hope the joint project with Toyota results in a fun driver's car.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by Matski

Wow, BMW really need to stop wasting time employing market analysts who know what they are doing and start employing people from this forum... that would sort them right out. I'm sure the US-centric viewpoint would do wonders for their global sales.

You believe analysts? That is like believing in God (assuming you don't).

Originally Posted by kyleb350

Was going to say that's an unfair comparison too. You're getting a hell of a lot more car than 25 years ago.

If you have to pay extra for that, that is not what I call progress. Cars are also a lot cheaper to produce now, and are also cheaper quality wise, so it balances out the extra you get.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Matski

Wow, BMW really need to stop wasting time employing market analysts who know what they are doing and start employing people from this forum... that would sort them right out. I'm sure the US-centric viewpoint would do wonders for their global sales.

Last time I bought a BMW, my SA said they were desperately trying to unload M coupes. They had several on the lot and ended up nearly giving them away to employees through extremely cheap leases. There is always initial interest for these cars but that market is very thin and easily saturated. Within six months they've typically sold them to everyone who was pining for them which leaves them with another 3.5yrs of drip and drab sales.

[Aries326]

Originally Posted by Kaxon

I agree with the general tone of this thread - although the sports car market has shrunk some, the real problem is what BMW is offering. I hope the joint project with Toyota results in a fun driver's car.

Agree with this statement and this thread in general. You guys have it hit spot on. When I went out looking for my first Z, I opted for the e85 instead of the e89 because while the e89 is sexy, it really isn't a quick and nimble roadster. I'm keeping my E85 for a very long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuz5150
All I gotta say to BMW is the M2 better Be Special and Priced right or else the masses will exit, and Never return. $85K M3-M4 just will not fly these days.
As of now, holding on to my M3's. If the M2 is a bust or too expensive....corvette, Mustang, camaro used GT-r here i come[/QUOTE]

You'd be surprised how many people are willing to pay for the M3-M4. BMW is like Apple of the car world. You're paying a lot more for the name with sleek styling, a few bells and whistles and not a whole lot more performance over the competition.

I hate wasting money on cars so I'm going to hold out another 3 years before I pick up something new. My Z4 3.0si still puts a smile on my face.

[alexb]

Originally Posted by DrtyJrze

Could you do us a favor and plug the price of a new M3 for each generation into an inflation calculator. Has the price of an M3 increased or decreased since its inception?

Welp, I don't have MSRP data for those cars, but I can tell you my 2006 330xi had a sticker of about $36,000 with modest packaging: Premium, Cold Weather, Metallic Paint. I plugged that into the Bureau of Labor Statistics CPI Inflation calculator, converting 2006 dollars into 2014 dollars.

The result was $42,505. I think we all know that a 2014 335xi, which occupies the same place in the lineup, cannot be had for such a paltry sum. Even with no options on the car, you're out the door for $46,700. So, I would say that there has definitely been inflation of BMW's cost (read: profit margin) which has out-paced the Consumer Price Index. The cost increase, paired with the cheapening of the car's interior and driving experience, has eroded the BMW value proposition.

Try it yourselves! Does anybody have the MSRP Sticker Price of a loaded (or un-loaded) 2007 335xi sedan we could punch into this thing? Edit: It will look even worse if we take E46 MSRP data and compare it to now. Anyone with an older car, who still has the sticker? Chime in!

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

[Alext]

I own a Z4 35is and am actually very pleased with it still. Much superior than my previous 135i to drive. Design is STILL the best in the BMW lineup after so many years. However, although I can buy any car in the BMW range, not one appeals to me for a weekend/occasional car. Why and how can this be so??!?

I used to be a great BMW fan but in recent times I think BMW have taken a nosedive in the styling department and have taken a BIG step back in the excitement of their engines. Was hoping the new M4 might have tickled my fancy but it simply doesn't. The E92 M3 looked better and had a sweeter engine. And so did the old M5!!!! The new Z4 will be hybrid and developed with Toyota - no thanks. The i8 - nope, BMW could have hit a home run with that but somehow looks a bit tooooo unique. All the SUV's - looks like this has been BMW's main focus and SUV's just don't appeal....I'm in the market for a sports coupe.

I am now hoping Benz does something special with the C63 Black Series coupe.

[OverDriven]

Originally Posted by Diver

It may be the low to mid range sports car market is shrinking, but very fast cars like the Stingray are selling fast. If the car is a beast it will sell. If it is just a nice car with moderately good performance, perhaps that market has evaporated.

What data are you basing this statement on? You have pre 2008 sports car sales numbers to compare the current ones to? If so, post them.

[Diver]

Originally Posted by OverDriven

What data are you basing this statement on? You have pre 2008 sports car sales numbers to compare the current ones to? If so, post them.

GM sold over 35,000 2014 Stingrays. That was about the total for 2010 through 2012. There was no 2013 model. The 2014 sales are not the highest in Corvette history, but are in the ballpark of the best years.

The collapse of sports car sales in 2008 was related to the stock market crash and also the attack on successful people, wealth and 1%'ers by the occupy and Obama camps. Folks wanted to take a lower profile, and green became the in thing.

I believe if a sports car is a beast it will sell. BMW does not need an SLK clone. They need an M car with two seats and a real hard top, probably based on the S55, but with a 2 series footprint.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Diver

GM sold over 35,000 2014 Stingrays. That was about the total for 2010 through 2012. There was no 2013 model. The 2014 sales are not the highest in Corvette history, but are in the ballpark of the best years.

The collapse of sports car sales in 2008 was related to the stock market crash and also the attack on successful people, wealth and 1%'ers by the occupy and Obama camps. Folks wanted to take a lower profile, and green became the in thing.

I believe if a sports car is a beast it will sell. BMW does not need an SLK clone. They need an M car with two seats and a real hard top, probably based on the S55, but with a 2 series footprint.

Sales data without context doesn't tell us anything. There are lots of opinions posted in here, but very few facts. Unfortunately, it's difficult to debate the topic, because I'm having a hard time finding statistics on "sports car sales". Probably because "sports car" isn't a well defined term.

Read this claim from the OP again:

“The sports-car market is roughly half of what it used to be,” Ian Robertson, BMW’s head of sales, said in an interview at the manufacturer’s headquarters in Munich. “Post-2008, it just collapsed. I’m not so sure it’ll ever fully recover.”

This is such a vague statement, I'm not even sure where to start. The two most glaring issues are:

1) The market specification is ambiguous. What is the "sports-car market"?
2) The statement "half of what it used to be" doesn't specify a time period. 2001? 1995? 2003? We don't know.

Still, he says, "the sports-car market", not BMW sales, not Corvette sales, the "market". No one, that I've seen, has posted a single shred of market data. It's a pointless debate anyway, because BMW probably have their own definition of that market.

The best data I can find comes from a site called Good Car Bad Car:

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/11...-2013-ytd.html

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2014/11...-2014-ytd.html

Unfortunately, the data isn't comprehensive, and isn't presented in a way that makes it easy to compare time periods (different time periods contain different cars).

It's obvious from the data that the Corvette sales are way, way up (146%), but have a look at the YTD numbers for the "American Muscle" group. When talking about "the market", where you draw your boundaries can make a huge difference. If we include cars like the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger in our "sports-car market" definition, the increase in Corvette sales is relatively insignificant. The entire "Other Sporty Cars" group is barely 2/3rds the size of the "American Muscle" group.

Sorry, I know this entire post is pedantic as hell, but the entire discussion here has turned in to an echo chamber. The discussion has little to do with what BMW has said. We're all posting wish lists of cars we'd buy, but that's missing the point entirely. It has nothing to do with anything, because the most focused cars in the market represent the smallest amount of sales.

BMW is hedging. The FWD 1-series is coming, and I suspect it won't be the last FWD BMW. A company the size of BMW has to move to where the market is headed, or they won't survive. The market, which is, unfortunately, not you and I. Enthusiasts are a tiny piece of the broad market. This communication from BMW is nothing more than excuse making and hedging for a move in to less driver-oriented cars. I hate to be so cynical, but it's hard to read it any other way.

[Diver]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

It's obvious from the data that the Corvette sales are way, way up (146%), but have a look at the YTD numbers for the "American Muscle" group. When talking about "the market", where you draw your boundaries can make a huge difference. If we include cars like the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger in our "sports-car market" definition, the increase in Corvette sales is relatively insignificant. The entire "Other Sporty Cars" group is barely 2/3rds the size of the "American Muscle" group.

My understanding of the data is BMW was looking at a segment including the Z, SLK and Audi TT. Sales there were documented to have declined. What I read into this is BMW might not have a lot of appetite for a major reworking of the Z line.

American Muscle seems to be in a renaissance of sorts. In this day and age of increasingly restrictive MPG standards, the fact that a car like the Stingray is available at a reasonable price and the pony cars at a mass market price is outstanding and more important to me than total sales numbers.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by MacOSR

Hmmm...at least for the Corvette it looks like their sales have drastically declined which supports this article... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvette (scroll to the bottom to see production numbers by year).

My fact check rates this as: FALSE.

The intro year for the C6 has almost the same sales (37,288) as for the C6 entry year (37,372 in 2005).

While there was a drop off (as with all companies from 2008) .. Clearly more time will tell, as we examine sales from 2015 models and further into the future... however the data shows that sales of the corvette are on the rise again... and from a first year perspective.. there is no drop off at all.

Originally Posted by MacOSR

Here are Porsche 911 production numbers: http://www.porschemag.com/render.cfm...uction_volumes (scroll to the bottom of the page)

The 911 #s you posted show an INCREASE in sales of 911s to 28K in 2012. this figure was only matched or exceeded in 2002,2003, and 2006-2008 (before the crash)... I would like to see the last 2 years of production figures..


edit: I did find this on 2013 figures... http://press.porsche.com/news/release.php?id=839

" The Porsche 911 was especially successful last year: During its anniversary year, around 30,000 of these iconic sports cars were handed over to customers. "

So.. the 911 sales were at the least steady...if not still on the rise in 2013..

Originally Posted by Diver

I believe if a sports car is a beast it will sell. BMW does not need an SLK clone. They need an M car with two seats and a real hard top, probably based on the S55, but with a 2 series footprint.

[Pauleebe]

I hate everything about this article.

The Z4 wasn't really that great looking of a vehicle, and terribly overpriced.

I feel like this is BMW also letting us know in advance they're moving away from RWD.

[bimmerbuff]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

BMW is hedging. The FWD 1-series is coming, and I suspect it won't be the last FWD BMW. A company the size of BMW has to move to where the market is headed, or they won't survive. The market, which is, unfortunately, not you and I. Enthusiasts are a tiny piece of the broad market. This communication from BMW is nothing more than excuse making and hedging for a move in to less driver-oriented cars. I hate to be so cynical, but it's hard to read it any other way.

[Matski]

Sports car unit sales could be on the up, but still be a decreasing portion of the overall car market.

[Jblack4083]

I have a different opinion.

And shame on the people in here talking economics without truly being educated on it. Once again... Bimmerpost... Home of all self-proclaimed experts.

The issue in my opinion is simple. Less expensive cars have gotten better as production techniques and technology have advanced. The performance gap between a sports car like a Z4 and less expensive cars has diminished greatly. Many of the things that made sports cars special can be found on many regular cars.

Until innovation is brought to the sports car segment, it will continue to limp.

I foresee it happening when the performance hybrid technology trickles down from cars like the i8.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Diver

The collapse of sports car sales in 2008 was related to the stock market crash and also the attack on successful people, wealth and 1%'ers by the occupy and Obama camps. Folks wanted to take a lower profile, and green became the in thing.

LOL, yeah, people aren't keen on buying a sports car because they're afraid of the backlash they'll get from some 27 year old barista who still lives with their parents.

I think you are drinking the Fox News kool-aid a little too hard, taking those stupid "War on [insert demographic]" that network cable news networks love to throw around too literally. If that were true, companies like Rolls Royce, Bentley, and hypercar makers like Lambo et. al. wouldn't be having great years as far as sales are concerned.

The sales of sports cars are going down because of the recession. Saying it may never recover is a bit extreme, but that's why BMW used the caveat "may".

BMW's problem is that they haven't really given the Z4 the attention it deserves. I don't even think they use an updated version of iDrive. Besides, it seems like roadsters in general don't sell too well. Seems like people would rather have a 4 Series Convertible than a Z4. I think of cars like the S2000 which was a fantastic car, everyone knew it but not many cared to spend the money for one.

Seems like you have to think a little outside the box and have a value proposition to convince buyers to spend good money on a car that's not particularly practical in any way, shape or form. The Z4 as it stands now doesn't cut it. It's easy to do if you're building a cheap, affordable sports car or one like the Corvette which has an incredible value proposition but cars like the SLK and Z4 need to convince buyers it's worth paying the premium for the lack of practicality.

My $0.02.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Jblack4083

And shame on the people in here talking economics without truly being educated on it. Once again... Bimmerpost... Home of all self-proclaimed experts.

Why wouldn't it be? We drive a 3-Series therefore we literally know everything. We're one more "What Gas Should I Use" thread away from curing cancer.

[Eichler1]

Originally Posted by Double Bubble

I give you Civic Type R

Civic as "sports" car? Who buys those any more?

There hasn't been a decent Civic since many readers here were in grammar school. Honda axed the famed double wishbone suspension on its Civic model back in 2001. The bean counters won, and driving enthusiasts lost. I had a 1991 Civic Si hatch for many years. That car was a revelation. You would not believe what fun one could have with just 108 stock hp, with God's own steering and clutch. Scarcely 2100 pounds, it handled like a go kart. A friend drove it and said, you think it, and the car is already doing it. So incredibly responsive, no drive by wire, no ABS, no anti-skid nannies, heck, no power steering, but one of the most direct connections between driver and machine in automotive history. I could beat guys on motorcycles in that thing! Cars were mechanical products in those days, not the warmed over computers with wheels and engines attached they've become today. So when the engineers got it right, the owner did a lot of grinning.

But the current Civic? Si or type R? Yawn. Focus ST or VW GTI? Good stuff if you want a compact hatch.

The sports car has "died" before and come back. Build something tight, driver-focused and affordable, and it'll sell.