[S EyeLand]

Originally Posted by mirob

Best Motoring

I've owned my E36 M3 for 20+ years now (it even outstayed my E46 M3). I encourage some of you to go drive these hero cars and see how they hold up vs what you remember. Prepare for disappointment.

Ugh i hate to open this can of worms but this happened to my father and I at a ford dealership. He was looking at buying a Roush so I took the ride with. They had an e39 M5 on the lot which the salesperson swore I would sell my F10 M5 for at the time or that my father would forgo the Roush and get the M5. After hearing about this car for the entirety of my life, we both took turns test-driving it with high expectations. My father and I both agreed the F10 comparison was joke. I think this would be like comparing a Super Nintendo to a PS5, The SNES was/is great, had great games and reminds me of my childhood and good times but of course the PS5 is better in every measurable way. Neither my father or I had any prior experience with the e39, so it was just performance to performance, and it wasn't even a question. Not to poo poo on the e39, I couldn't care less about car loyalty but every time I hear "BeSt M5", I just cringe when I think back at that test drive and compare it to a modern M. Great for its time, I'll take people's word for it... have we moved on to bigger and better things? Absolutely.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by S EyeLand

Ugh i hate to open this can of worms but this happened to my father and I at a ford dealership. He was looking at buying a Roush so I took the ride with. They had an e39 M5 on the lot which the salesperson swore I would sell my F10 M5 for at the time or that my father would forgo the Roush and get the M5. After hearing about this car for the entirety of my life, we both took turns test-driving it with high expectations. My father and I both agreed the F10 comparison was joke. I think this would be like comparing a Super Nintendo to a PS5, The SNES was/is great, had great games and reminds me of my childhood and good times but of course the PS5 is better in every measurable way. Neither my father or I had any prior experience with the e39, so it was just performance to performance, and it wasn't even a question. Not to poo poo on the e39, I couldn't care less about car loyalty but every time I hear "BeSt M5", I just cringe when I think back at that test drive and compare it to a modern M. Great for its time, I'll take people's word for it... have we moved on to bigger and better things? Absolutely.

That's just the sad reality.

The E39 M5 had god-status in it's heyday and deservedly so. There was no Audi, Merc, or Cadillac to challenge its supremacy in a meaningful way.

The F90 is a fantastic car in its own right but the competition understands the recipe now and are building just as good or better drivers cars. Took them two decades to catch up.

Competition in the sports sedan segment is stronger than ever. Whether that is by engineering or reverse engineering is a different conversation.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by alex2364

As opposed to defending calling others delusional? Perhaps read the entire thread.

Look up what "drinking the Kool Aid" means. Take some time to really understand the phrase. Come back here when the irony hits you.

We'll wait...

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by mirob

Look up what "drinking the Kool Aid" means. Take some time to really understand the phrase. Come back here when the irony hits you.

We'll wait...

No need to look up anything when you already admitted to it.

Originally Posted by mirob

I'd drink a gallon of Kool Aid before participating in the F8X circle jerk you're part of.

[pbonsalb]

I am not blindly loyal to BMW, but have had some good ones, like a 1973 E3 Bavaria, 1979 E24 635csi, 1999 E36 M3 (still have), 1999 E39 528i, 2008 E70 X5 4.8i, 2008 E61 535xi (still maintain), 2008 E90 M3, and 2018 F90 M5 (still have). I liked all of those.

In late 2020, I wanted a newer SUV to replace the 535xi wagon and went to BMW to test drive a 2021 X5 40i x-drive M Sport. It drove like a truck. We went to the Porsche dealer and drove a Cayenne base. It drove really well. We could not believe it so we went back to BMW and drove the X5 again. It was truly a truck in comparison. We went back to Porsche and yes, there was a night and day difference. We liked the Porsche enough to pay the premium, but I also wanted a little more power. My wife thought the GTS with 4.0L V8 and blacked out wheels and trim and sport exhaust looked like a gangster car and sounded like a truck so we compromised on a new Cayenne S model with 2.9L TT V6. We like it and plan to keep it.

In 2021, I wanted a comfortable sedan to replace the 2008 M3, so I looked at Audi RS7, Porsche Panamerica Turbo, Cadillac Blackwing, and BMW M5. I bought a CPO M5. It weighed the least, performed the best in a straight line, and the handling seemed OK. I wanted AWD so the Blackwing was not really in the running. The Panamerica handles better but it was heavier, more expensive, and wider.

Right now, the Tesla Plaid looks like a bargain at $90k new, but I am not really in the market.

Anyway, look around, test drive, and buy what you like.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by S EyeLand

Ugh i hate to open this can of worms but this happened to my father and I at a ford dealership. He was looking at buying a Roush so I took the ride with. They had an e39 M5 on the lot which the salesperson swore I would sell my F10 M5 for at the time or that my father would forgo the Roush and get the M5. After hearing about this car for the entirety of my life, we both took turns test-driving it with high expectations. My father and I both agreed the F10 comparison was joke. I think this would be like comparing a Super Nintendo to a PS5, The SNES was/is great, had great games and reminds me of my childhood and good times but of course the PS5 is better in every measurable way. Neither my father or I had any prior experience with the e39, so it was just performance to performance, and it wasn't even a question. Not to poo poo on the e39, I couldn't care less about car loyalty but every time I hear "BeSt M5", I just cringe when I think back at that test drive and compare it to a modern M. Great for its time, I'll take people's word for it... have we moved on to bigger and better things? Absolutely.

I have no thoughts or opinions on your experience with the E39 versus the F10. I like the F10 fairly well and I have nothing against it, but there is no disputing that by the time the 5er got to the F10 generation it had become a boat and the only saving grace for its handling dynamics was Active Roll Stabilization. I haven’t driven the E39 5er much, but I have driven the E60 5er quite a lot and the F10 5er’s driving dynamics were a dramatic departure from the E60. I haven’t driven an F90, but the G30 5er is pure luxury highway cruiser.

[S EyeLand]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I have no thoughts or opinions on your experience with the E39 versus the F10. I like the F10 fairly well and I have nothing against it, but there is no disputing that by the time the 5er got to the F10 generation it had become a boat and the only saving grace for its handling dynamics was Active Roll Stabilization. I haven’t driven the E39 5er much, but I have driven the E60 5er quite a lot and the F10 5er’s driving dynamics were a dramatic departure from the E60. I haven’t driven an F90, but the G30 5er is pure luxury highway cruiser.

Are we talking about M5s or 5 series generally?

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by S EyeLand

Are we talking about M5s or 5 series generally?

In all honesty when I was talking about the F10 dynamics I had the regular 5er in mind. I honestly can’t remember if I’ve ever driven an F10 M5. Obviously it would have a considerably more robust suspension setup than the regular 5er. But that doesn’t completely negate the fact that both the F generation and G generation 5ers are substantially bigger and heavier than the previous E generations.

[S EyeLand]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

In all honesty when I was talking about the F10 dynamics I had the regular 5er in mind. I honestly can’t remember if I’ve ever driven an F10 M5. Obviously it would have a considerably more robust suspension setup than the regular 5er. But that doesn’t completely negate the fact that both the F generation and G generation 5ers are substantially bigger and heavier than the previous E generations.

I see. I think this is something a lot of people say but when they drive an F10M5 or F90 the first thing they mention is how tight and nimble the car feels. Even my X5Ms I've owned surprise people when they've driven them. BMW is getting better and better at producing these beasts, the formula for TQ, HP, suspension and weight is working very well based on my experience owning M cars.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by S EyeLand

I see. I think this is something a lot of people say but when they drive an F10M5 or F90 the first thing they mention is how tight and nimble the car feels. Even my X5Ms I've owned surprise people when they've driven them. BMW is getting better and better at producing these beasts, the formula for TQ, HP, suspension and weight is working very well based on my experience owning M cars.

Whilst his strong convictions are somewhat concerning, without having any first-hand experience on the subject (self-admitted), at least he's honest. That's respectable.

Others are blindly regurgitating drivel they hear and see on YT or read in forum threads.

[scotthilly]

Originally Posted by mirob

You're delusional my guy.

BMW got worse relative to competitors. Wether that means competitors got better, or BMW didn’t put in as much effort doesn’t really matter

Delusional about what? C&D themselves has posted comparisons saying “we’re pretty sure the previous generation (E90) would beat the F30 handily, too”. That gets rid of the 3 series, and I don’t know anyone that would take a 5 or 7 over the E90. And again, a 3 series hasn’t seen 10 best since.

I also have extensive time in a 2017 m240i and find it nowhere near as satisfying as my E8/9x, a point that’s been backed up by many others in the thread.

[scotthilly]

Originally Posted by Neusser

I am pretty impressed with the dynamics in my G31. The car is a bit soft even with 704 suspension, but it has a nose for the apex and will do what you want it to, even if it rolls a bit. The comfort levels are quite impressive given the dynamic capabilites on offer (which are even better when tire pressure is dialed properly). It also feels quite light on its feet for a car that is nearly 5 meters long.

It competes with the '43 products from Merc, and it is not even an M product.

I support this. I think BMW still has an edge in outright handling and performance and numbers, it’s the feeling and feedback that’s gone, and gone to a huge degree. Basically any Mazda, Cadillac sedan, Porsche, Honda, Acura, etc, have better things like steering feedback and chassis rotation.

BMW is still the champ of dynamic capability, it’s the feeling that it elicits where they fall behind someone like Cadillac (Blackwing) or Porsche.

[scotthilly]

Originally Posted by SteVTEC

My wife and I bought his and her 2011 E93 335i and 2012 E70 X5 35d Bimmers back in the day, and I guess these were the last and best of breed "every day" BMW's with that perfect balance of sport and comfort in the suspension, great feedback from their hydraulic power steering racks, and overall incredible combinations of performance and fuel efficiency.

They lost the plot with the Fxx cars. Loose and pinky light steering, base suspensions more suitable for a Buick than a BMW, tachometers that were noticeably out of sync with the engine especially on a cold shift, and an overall disconnected feeling with the cars. You could still get a properly driving BMW from this era, but had to check the right boxes for MSport/DHP suspensions, etc.

BMW's explanation at the time was that they sold more cars in the Asian market and especially China, than all of Europe and North America combined. These were the preferences of that market, and so that's how they oriented the design of their cars towards super isolation and very light effort steering. I'll never forget the time I dumped a loaner F30 328i into my "high speed cornering test" at 80 mph. It was nearly a code brown moment. Another loaner F33 328i I had was an MSport with DHP and was far better.

I had planned to swap my E93 335i for an F80 M3, but life got in the way and bought a Chevy Suburban instead, so have yet to check the M box. Basically the same price at the time too.

Just picked up a CPO MY22 G05 X5 for mostly my wife to drive, and while I can't speak for other Gxx era cars yet, it's fantastic to drive [...]

This is part of it too - they invest way more into SUV’s. IMO the X3 m40i and x5 (all trims) are their most compelling cars. They nailed them and both offer similar feedback if not more than their sedan brethren, the exact opposite of what it should be.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by scotthilly

BMW got worse relative to competitors. Wether that means competitors got better, or BMW didn’t put in as much effort doesn’t really matter

Of course it matters. It makes a huge difference. There is a limit of what manufacturers can do with regulations (and still make money). That's why there is an even playing field when it comes to the sports sedan today. They all make similar power, have similar weight, and have comparable driving dynamics. They're not building 3000 lb. sport sedans because they can't (regulations) - not because they don't want to.

Originally Posted by scotthilly

Delusional about what? C&D themselves has posted comparisons saying “we’re pretty sure the previous generation (E90) would beat the F30 handily, too”. That gets rid of the 3 series, and I don’t know anyone that would take a 5 or 7 over the E90. And again, a 3 series hasn’t seen 10 best since.

You're putting too much faith into what C&D says. They're humans with flaws just like you and I. Besides, the i4 was on 10 Best in 2023 and the 3er doesn't end with the F-chasis. Your 5er & 7er series point seems highly anecdotal. Anyone who needs more room would absolutely take the larger car.

Originally Posted by scotthilly

I also have extensive time in a 2017 m240i and find it nowhere near as satisfying as my E8/9x, a point that’s been backed up by many others in the thread.

I believe it. Wife had an E90 335i and the speed it produced, compared to my E46 M3 I still had at the time, was eye opening. The N54 was an UNIT. But is it fair to make a general statement like the one below?

Originally Posted by scotthilly

I would also take my e90 335 over any bmw made since except a f8x.

[Fugly M3]

Classic cycle:

1. Build amazing product for small audience.
2. Small audience adopts heavily and attracts attention.
3. Broad audience adopts but whines about the very qualities that make product amazing.
4. Focus group amazing product and destroy it.
5. Broad audience goes mad. Small audience walks away.
6. Broad audience realizes everyone has said product and it's neither good nor cool.
7. Broad audience walks away. Company in crisis.
8. Company recovers with return to step 1 or fails.

We're somewhere around 5 is my guess.

[scotthilly]

Originally Posted by mirob

Of course it matters. It makes a huge difference. There is a limit of what manufacturers can do with regulations (and still make money). That's why there is an even playing field when it comes to the sports sedan today. They all make similar power, have similar weight, and have comparable driving dynamics. They're not building 3000 lb. sport sedans because they can't (regulations) - not because they don't want to.



You're putting too much faith into what C&D says. They're humans with flaws just like you and I. Besides, the i4 was on 10 Best in 2023 and the 3er doesn't end with the F-chasis. Your 5er & 7er series point seems highly anecdotal. Anyone who needs more room would absolutely take the larger car.



I believe it. Wife had an E90 335i and the speed it produced, compared to my E46 M3 I still had at the time, was eye opening. The N54 was an UNIT. But is it fair to make a general statement like the one below?

I don't think I'm putting too much faith into them, they were the gold standard of automotive journalism until recently, IMO. And the i4 has one competitor, and it's the Model 3. It's one of literally 2 electric sport sedans below 50k; it's almost a winner by default.

I'm not even close to asking for a 3,000 pound sedan. My e90 335i was tested at over 3500 pounds, and the f80 m3 was lighter than the e90 m3. The G20 I believe is in the high 3600's. "Regulations" don't require bad steering feel and unpredictable rotation - unless the Ct4/ct5/giulia/genesis g70 are somehow ignoring these.

Here's a link I highly reccomend reading, or here or here.

My 5&7 series points are not anecdotal. My first statement was that "no car comes close in involvement" and you're combatting that with "anyone who needs more room would take the larger care". You could take that sidestep to literally any argument: "how's a cayman gt4 more fun than a suburban? I want a bigger car". Not a good one.

[scotthilly]

Originally Posted by Fugly M3

Classic cycle:

1. Build amazing product for small audience.
2. Small audience adopts heavily and attracts attention.
3. Broad audience adopts but whines about the very qualities that make product amazing.
4. Focus group amazing product and destroy it.
5. Broad audience goes mad. Small audience walks away.
6. Broad audience realizes everyone has said product and it's neither good nor cool.
7. Broad audience walks away. Company in crisis.
8. Company recovers with return to step 1 or fails.

We're somewhere around 5 is my guess.

I wouldn't really consider it to be a cycle when they produced world renowned sport sedans for 30 years and have now produced more isolated, but still sporty, sedans for the next 15 years. That cycle is more akin to smaller products / trends that come out (piano black, for example, being a trim in everything from 2017-2020 and sort of going away since).

[freakystyly]

Generational size creep . Most car makers suffer from it.

Replacement "lower tiers" are unsatisfactory.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by scotthilly

I don't think I'm putting too much faith into them, they were the gold standard of automotive journalism until recently, IMO. And the i4 has one competitor, and it's the Model 3. It's one of literally 2 electric sport sedans below 50k; it's almost a winner by default.

Agree to disagree on the gold standard. I don't care about EVs. I just did my due diligence and looked up their Top 10 throughout the years. Question. What did the 3 series go up against all those years it spend on the 10 best list? C-class? A-series? What else? Was it winning by default?

Originally Posted by scotthilly

I'm not even close to asking for a 3,000 pound sedan. My e90 335i was tested at over 3500 pounds, and the f80 m3 was lighter than the e90 m3. The G20 I believe is in the high 3600's. "Regulations" don't require bad steering feel and unpredictable rotation - unless the Ct4/ct5/giulia/genesis g70 are somehow ignoring these.

Here's a link I highly reccomend reading, or here or here.

No but they indirectly require electric steering, which inherently has no real feedback. I can't speak to any of those as I haven't driven them but I've seen, read, and heard the reviews. I know that Porsche has mastered EPS. The rest? I doubt it's anything meaningfully better than what BMW is able to do. As far as unpredictable rotation goes, this is new to me. I'd love to hear more about it. Are you talking about snap oversteer?

Originally Posted by scotthilly

My 5&7 series points are not anecdotal. My first statement was that "no car comes close in involvement" and you're combatting that with "anyone who needs more room would take the larger care". You could take that sidestep to literally any argument: "how's a cayman gt4 more fun than a suburban? I want a bigger car". Not a good one.

I wasn't trying to make a strawman argument. YOU compared the E90 to cars one or two classes larger. I simply pointed out that there is a reason why one would choose the larger car. Purely based on driving dynamics, yes, you're probably right. Maybe I'm not understanding the point you were trying to make here.

I can make this argument though. I'm willing to bet the house that my E36 is more involving to drive than your E90 - dynamics, feel, and weight. So was my E46. E90 is faster - that's it. I can make the same argument for the E36 vs the E90 that you're making for the E90 vs the G20. But there's more to a car than that. The E90 was a fine vehicle but it's not the pinnacle of automotive engineering. Let's not talk in absolutes.

[wtwo3]

BMW has gotten worse relative to its competitors?

What a load of horseshit. This whole thread sounds like a bunch of butthurt have-beens.

Someone referenced the m340i. Who are the competitors? The snoozefest Audi S5? The 4-banger overly-complicated and insanely heavy C43?

How about the M3? Another snoozefest in the RS5.... or the same overly-complicated 4 banger in the C63 with terrible build quality? An outdated Giulia with an economy class interior? The only potential competitor is the CT4V-BW which is slower and has inferior interior quality - but i'll give it points for driver engagement. The G80 is objectively the best M3 ever made - but people want to hate on it because they can't get over the looks - sure, subjective there.

Porsche doesn't make a competitor to either of those cars btw. In fact I would argue Porsche doesn't make any competing cars - unless you count the Panamera as a competitor to the 5 series. The Macan is smaller than the X3, and the Cayenne is smaller than the X5. But those would be your closest potential competitors between Porsche and BMW. And Porsche is significantly more expensive when you load it up to a comparable spec.

Most cars get objectively better relative to their previous generations. That's just progress. I think the issue that people are complaining about is the visceral driving dynamics that are getting lost in a sea of refinement and luxury. I'll agree to that. But that isn't exclusive to BMW. BMW is at the top of its game right now, making the best cars it has ever made in its entire history. They just don't have the raw feel that some of them used to from years past. That's conflating people's views into thinking BMW is getting worse.

Quite the miracle that BMW is getting worse and yet it's the #1 selling luxury automaker.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

BMW has gotten worse relative to its competitors?

What a load of horseshit. This whole thread sounds like a bunch of butthurt have-beens.

Someone referenced the m340i. Who are the competitors? The snoozefest Audi S5? The 4-banger overly-complicated and insanely heavy C43?

How about the M3? Another snoozefest in the RS5.... or the same overly-complicated 4 banger in the C63 with terrible build quality? An outdated Giulia with an economy class interior? The only potential competitor is the CT4V-BW which is slower and has inferior interior quality - but i'll give it points for driver engagement. The G80 is objectively the best M3 ever made - but people want to hate on it because they can't get over the looks - sure, subjective there.

Porsche doesn't make a competitor to either of those cars btw. In fact I would argue Porsche doesn't make any competing cars - unless you count the Panamera as a competitor to the 5 series. The Macan is smaller than the X3, and the Cayenne is smaller than the X5. But those would be your closest potential competitors between Porsche and BMW. And Porsche is significantly more expensive when you load it up to a comparable spec.

Most cars get objectively better relative to their previous generations. That's just progress. I think the issue that people are complaining about is the visceral driving dynamics that are getting lost in a sea of refinement and luxury. I'll agree to that. But that isn't exclusive to BMW. BMW is at the top of its game right now, making the best cars it has ever made in its entire history. They just don't have the raw feel that some of them used to from years past. That's conflating people's views into thinking BMW is getting worse.

Quite the miracle that BMW is getting worse and yet it's the #1 selling luxury automaker.

/thread

[scotthilly]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

BMW has gotten worse relative to its competitors?

Someone referenced the m340i. Who are the competitors? The snoozefest Audi S5? The 4-banger overly-complicated and insanely heavy C43?

How about the M3?

The G80 is objectively the best M3 ever made - but people want to hate on it because they can't get over the looks - sure, subjective there.

Once again, proving... no other manufacturer makes a competitor, so it's hard to compare. With that said, the a5 crushed a 430i xdrive and giulia's and xf's have been lauded for better chassis feel.


Most cars get objectively better relative to their previous generations. That's just progress. I think the issue that people are complaining about is the visceral driving dynamics that are getting lost in a sea of refinement and luxury. I'll agree to that. But that isn't exclusive to BMW. BMW is at the top of its game right now, making the best cars it has ever made in its entire history. They just don't have the raw feel that some of them used to from years past. That's conflating people's views into thinking BMW is getting worse.

Quite the miracle that BMW is getting worse and yet it's the #1 selling luxury automaker.

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. BMW is objectively better, subjectively, with those feelings and illict reactions... worse.

How about the M3?! The F80 was in numerous comparison tests where, on driving dynamics, it finished last compared to the Giulia Quad, C63, and ATS in C&D. Motortrend said "The M3 was the most clinical, the most removed". Let's not discuss when Motortrend said they'd take a Camaro SS over an M4 any day of the week!
The G80 was in a comparison test with the Giulia Quad recently and it finished... wait for it.. "The M3 dominates most performance metrics, but the Giulia isn't far off and it has a closer connection to the driver". That's back to back gens that are being crushed for lack of involvement when that was previously BMW's calling card.

Plus, you're further proving my point when you reference Porsche. They don't make much that compares to bmw, but the e90 m3 was so good that it invoked the comparison.

IMO, all you need to know is that they removed ultimate driving machine as their tagline and replaced it with sheer driving pleasure. Once again, look at the M Engines from being borderline exotics with personality to now becoming twin turbo inline 6 and v8's.

Enthusiasts are NOT the entire market, we're an insanely small subsection. If we were bigger, way more people would own things like XE's, Giulia's, G70's, etc, etc.

That's why BMW is a top seller because they've done what other brands do, and offer that sporting brand, marketing, and fantastic engines. You could blindy discern E36/E46/E90 steering from competitors. You'll blindly discern F&G, all right, but only because of how much worse it is than competitors.

It seems we won't agree on this so there's not much sense in going further, but there's a reason every single auto journalist talks about BMW "losing feel" or "becoming more mass market" or "losing specialness". They don't say it about anyone else.