06-11-2016, 04:10 PM | #111 | |
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06-11-2016, 07:13 PM | #112 |
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Ya I read that. This is nothing new.
BMW has very deep pockets and they need to protect themselves from some idiot(s) who thinks a big pay day is coming. There are all sorts of scenarios (suicide, recklessness, etc.) that are out of BMW's control.
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06-11-2016, 09:22 PM | #113 |
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If someone is intent on suicide, I'd think a waiver or being financially responsible for any material damage wouldn't deter that individual from meeting their maker.
But I get the underlying meaning of what you're saying. |
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06-11-2016, 10:07 PM | #114 | |
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The debate is about the additional terms in the waiver that say participants can be held responsible for damage they cause (including damage to the cars) and stating that participants have liability insurance coverage that covers them during participation. Some say BMW never enforces those terms so you should ignore them. Others are not comfortable signing something like that, particularly since neither BMW nor anyone in this thread has identified a source from which to purchase such insurance (which is not the same as buying track day insurance for your own car).
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06-11-2016, 11:37 PM | #115 | |
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06-12-2016, 09:31 AM | #116 | |
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Of course, the entire *intent * of the event is to 1-teach you to be a better driver 2-teach you more about the performance and safety systems that are on your vehicle. 3- to teach you how the performance and safety systems WORK on your vehicle so that, should you experience them in the wild (read: on your local streets ) you will know how to react. So unless you absolutely FAIL completely on those three counts, you have nothing to worry about. I'm pretty positive that BMW NA has no intentions of using a driver training event to BANKRUPT your household, however , If you lack the confidence in yourself, then I agree it's a good idea not to attend. If you would like actual anecdotal evidence, I do have a friend who crashed a BMW vehicle while at an ultimate driver type event showcasing the 3 series. She was driving a vehicle on the " road tour " portion of the event ( no instructor - just she and her spouse in the vehicle ) and misjudged her speed and slid into a metal barrier at Texas motor speedway. Even though it was a complete driver error , they did NOT charge her for the damages to the car ( a headlamp and bumper and fender ) and fortunately , the barrier was undamaged. The way I see it you have from now until October to find a horror story about someone being charged for damaging a vehicle at a BMW training event at either of the Performance Centers , a DRIVE for the Cure Event , Ultimate drive - any event ... And Reevaluate from there |
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06-13-2016, 11:26 AM | #117 | |
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Additionally, I haven’t been all that impressed with some of the BMWCCA HPDE instruction I’ve received, and I’ve even had to ignore improper driving techniques taught by my BMWCCA instructors. That’s just my experience with a handful of BMWCCA instructors though, and there are some very good ones out there who also instruct for professional driving schools.
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06-13-2016, 01:31 PM | #118 | ||
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06-13-2016, 02:00 PM | #119 | |
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Whether or not BMW have ever chosen to enforce the waiver is irrelevant as to the binding effect of the paper being signed.
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06-13-2016, 02:05 PM | #120 | ||
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BMW paid for me to go to Germany , where i got to drive the 1M before it was made. There are many different driving training and promotional events put on by BMW and each of them gives enthusiasts an opportunity to experience cars on track and on the street. If I had refused to sign a waiver like this I would have missed out on a hell of an opportunity. A waiver isn't worth the piece of paper it's printed on anyway by the time a good attorney gets to it. " driver attends BMW event and then is forced to file bankruptcy after crashing car". If you seriously think that BMW wants that sort of headline getting to press - you must be out of your mind. Just the bad press from such a headline would be horrible and cost them millions. Get a clue. That waiver is there to ensure again gross negligence by a participant and keeps participants aware that they are responsible for not being completely irresponsible or for causing intentional harm. In many ways it would be irresponsible of the company not to make participants accountable in some fashion for their actions. " Come on down and be completely irresponsible ! " |
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06-13-2016, 02:58 PM | #121 | |
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If they want participants to be responsible then they should make insurance available and part of the cost of participation. 120 posts in this thread and no one can point to an insurance provider that allows participants to comply with the contract they are signing. Its really not that complicated or unreasonable to provide a contract with which both parties can comply.
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06-13-2016, 03:01 PM | #122 | ||
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120 posts and no insurer How many thousands of people have been to thru the performance center over the years - How many times has BMW NA demanded or requested that someone provide insurance? this clearly is a non issue. |
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06-13-2016, 03:36 PM | #123 | |
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However, I agree it is a non-issue as long as there are plenty of people willing to sign it as is. There is no reason for BMW to change anything if that's the case. The rest of us just won't go. Unfortunate but not the end of the world.
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06-13-2016, 04:03 PM | #124 | ||
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I think that waiver certainly might be in place for such a person. if you don't feel that you can attend this sort of event without wrecking a vehicle, despite the traction control being on, then by all means I'd rather you stay home as well! Sounds like that waiver is already doing its job |
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06-13-2016, 04:23 PM | #125 | |
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06-13-2016, 04:44 PM | #126 | |
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But you blew off a guy who said, "I'm uncomfortable signing this because I have a family to take care of." What kind of jerk rolls his eyes at a guy for saying something like that? Last I checked, the internet is the worst place to go for legal advice. I've been on the defendant side of civil litigation before, and I can tell you that it's no picnic. Just because you've got a pile of anecdotes and some ill-informed legal opinion doesn't give you the right to go shitting all over some guy looking out for his family.
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06-13-2016, 08:30 PM | #127 | |
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BMW would never go after a participant over an honest accident. When I was there a driver somehow bent a valve and they put her in a new vehicle right away. BTW..For those who are interested there are companies which provide track insurance.
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06-13-2016, 08:37 PM | #128 |
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If you are able to provide the name of a company that sells track insurance for a car other than your own, it would be much appreciated. I think this would solve the dilemma for those uncomfortable with the waiver terms. Thanks.
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06-13-2016, 08:54 PM | #129 | |
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https://www.bmwcca.org/events/hpde
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06-13-2016, 09:01 PM | #130 | ||
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06-13-2016, 09:10 PM | #131 | |
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It can definitely be said that BMW has no track record of going after participants for mishaps. But this cannot be said: "BMW would never go after a participant over an honest accident." Only BMW can assert that. This is the fundamental problem. No matter how much track record we have, BMW still requires that you sign a document that: A) Puts all liability on you as a participant. B) Causes you to assert that you have insurance coverage that you do not (in most cases). Regardless of track record, that is the circumstance that you enter when you sign the agreement. Some people are OK with that, but others are not. No one should be talked down to for expressing that they're not comfortable with the risk.
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06-13-2016, 09:12 PM | #132 | |
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http://locktonmotorsports.com/product/hpde-insurance
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