[deutschmann59]

You know, speaking of escalades, I wonder if these big car companies really are in a conspiracy with oil companies. I mean, did you see that trailer for the new documentary "who killed the electric car?"

Think about it...in the late 90s, what were big American car companies more interested in--fuel efficient cars or gas guzzling monstrosities?

Cadillac and their escalade, lincoln and their navigator, GM took over Hummer and started a whole new line of vehicles under the Hummer name that all average 8 miles to the gallon, I mean, what do you think is going on here?

Again american car makers have missed the boat. Who's doing hyrbids? Japanese makers like Toyota and Honda. This is funny because Japanese and European cars have such great gas mileage the way it is, you would think that GM and Ford would be looking into it more aggressively. I mean, after all, most foreign cars with 6 cylinders perform better and have better gas mileage than some american cars wtih 4 cylinders.

American car makers are in trouble

[bavarian19]

Originally Posted by sharp1183

American car makers are in trouble

I say 'good.' They need to get their act together...

[younghov85]

american car companies are making fuel effeicient cars. The Impala gets the best gas out of any V-8. The corvette gets the best gas milage out of any sports car. GM is designing all of their trucks and SUVs to become hybirds, at the auto shows you can see all of these vehicles. The thing is that Japanese car maker are simply better in their engineering. So what if they compy most of their concepts, the thing is, that they perfect them why the originators still are trying to give it their best. So saying that american car companies dont try and place good gas mileage vehilces on the market would be a lie. Saying that they place not very well engineered vehicles on the market with lack of quality would be a better way of putting it.

[deutschmann59]

Originally Posted by younghov85

So saying that american car companies dont try and place good gas mileage vehilces on the market would be a lie. Saying that they place not very well engineered vehicles on the market with lack of quality would be a better way of putting it.

That's true. I also forgot to mention the fact that most GM and Ford vehicles will run on that new E85 ethynol fuel. So I guess they are trying, maybe just not hard enough, though.

[whippersnapper]

I think fuel efficiency is overrated as a reason for the big 3 decline. Most of the reason is simply crap cars that even americans don't want to buy anymore

[deutschmann59]

Originally Posted by whippersnapper

I think fuel efficiency is overrated as a reason for the big 3 decline. Most of the reason is simply crap cars that even americans don't want to buy anymore

Yeah, that's definitely true. But fuel efficiency has something to do with it maybe a little. I mean, suppose you have to travel 40-50 miles to work everyday. I really don't think anyone would look to Ford or GM for a good commuter car...then again, with that kind of mileage everyday, maybe a motorcycle would be better!

But I completely agree with you. Not only is the gas mileage bad, their re-designs are uninspiring (look at how close the ford fusion looks to the CTS), their cars are built cheaply and look cheap, they don't handle well, they don't perform well, and I think most of all, many American cars aren't even made IN AMERICA anymore! I think some chevys are 100% built in foreign countries like South Korea and Mexico!

So Americans don't even have that "helping to save their neighbors' jobs" incentive because a lot of automotive jobs are outsourced anyway!

[younghov85]

Originally Posted by sharp1183

Yeah, that's definitely true. But fuel efficiency has something to do with it maybe a little. I mean, suppose you have to travel 40-50 miles to work everyday. I really don't think anyone would look to Ford or GM for a good commuter car...then again, with that kind of mileage everyday, maybe a motorcycle would be better!

But I completely agree with you. Not only is the gas mileage bad, their re-designs are uninspiring (look at how close the ford fusion looks to the CTS), their cars are built cheaply and look cheap, they don't handle well, they don't perform well, and I think most of all, many American cars aren't even made IN AMERICA anymore! I think some chevys are 100% built in foreign countries like South Korea and Mexico!

So Americans don't even have that "helping to save their neighbors' jobs" incentive because a lot of automotive jobs are outsourced anyway!

I dont get your point exactly because to of the most repected new american cars (for performance reasons) are the Chevy Corvette and the Cadillac CTS and CTS-V. Both were designed and heavily tested in Germany, same place where BMW does most of its testing and trial runs on the (sorry I dont know how to spell it) Nurbergruin track.

[deutschmann59]

Originally Posted by younghov85

I dont get your point exactly because to of the most repected new american cars (for performance reasons) are the Chevy Corvette and the Cadillac CTS and CTS-V. Both were designed and heavily tested in Germany, same place where BMW does most of its testing and trial runs on the (sorry I dont know how to spell it) Nurbergruin track.

I'm just saying there was a time people used to buy american cars to support the American economy and American jobs. Chrysler 20 years ago, is an example. They were going through a "slippery" period so many Americans joined together to buy Chryslers to help save some American jobs.

I'm saying you can't even support American jobs by buying American cars since some American cars aren't even being built here in the first place.

[vladinecko]

i agree to a degree with sharp about gas guzzling american cars and oil companies but i also think this may something to do with the american culture as a whole. things are simply big here and there must a LOT of everything. especially when you look at 50s 60s cars, they weren't cars, they were boats. huge! and this phenomenon is continuing into the 21st century but as more and more external factors make american people realize wasting or excessive consumption of goods is not healthy for anyone or anything, people are starting taking steps in the right direction. it's very slow though, i think.

[vladinecko]

also, as clarkson said at the end, a vast majority of american cars are very cheaply made, including the cadillac. and that's why it is kind of insulting to go and see a car made of plastic with reliability of the first british tank, exciting as an old lady on a walker, attractive as larry king and they have the balls to ask $50k - $100k for it. i simply don't get their marketing strategy.

[obLu]

I think the CTS is designed as competitor for the 3 series so your comparison is one size off as it were.

I don't think the CTS was meant to compete for the same customers that buy 3 series cars ... it's too big, too luxury. If you look at it from an American perspective, the 3 series is a compact car; the CTS is a mid-size. My thoughts are that the CTS was designed to possibly pull some sales from the 3 series but to also pull some sales from the 5 series since the two are the same physical size.

Even without that, taking a look at the top of the line 333hp M3 coupe vs a top of the line 400hp V8 4 door? I've got a family, I'm buying the 4D. Gotta remember the target when the CTS-V first went in front of the committee was the e39 M5. They didn't know at the time that the e60 M5 was going to be 500hp. Still for a 400hp V8, 50k is a lot more attractive than a 90k M5. If all you're looking at is hp vs price.

And when I was shopping for the e90 and took a side look at the CTS-V I walked away with a 46k deal without more than a couple of seconds of talking to the sales guy. 39k for my 255hp e90, 46k for 400hp V8. If I'm shopping only by numbers thats pretty hard to say no to. Especially since I find the e90 interior to be pretty cheap feeling in it's own right ... I've been spoiled by Audi.

Ultimately, no matter how attractive the hp or price, you can't argue with how shitty American car resale vaules are. I have car ADD and need a new one at least every 2 years. Can't do that with an American car.

Plus the e90 handled better, contest over.

But back to topic, I have a theory on the XLR-V. Cadillac is having a big resurgence. As much as we think they suck, they're selling cars. Cadillac needs a halo car. Chevy has the Corvette. Slap a new body on it, make it the Caddy halo car, but whatever you do, don't scavenge sales from the Corvette. Also, we've got to recoup the tooling expense for the new body and we're not going to make many ... slap a 100k price tag on it.

[Bimmerista]

Well, if the CTS is mid size, then the STS is full size and the DTS is what; over the top size

Irrespective of price I think we should compare the cars the way the fit within the manufacturers' own line up. The launch advertising for the CTS, at least in Canada, was positioning it against the G35 sedan, the A4s and the 3 series of this world; and the extra space was one of their sales pitch.

The CTS-V I grant you has 4 doors but I am not sure that simply because of that it should be compared with an M5, rahther than the M3. BTW it is very likely that the new M3 will also come in 4 doors.

But from reading you post, we do not disagree substantively about performance etc.

If Caddy improves the quality of the interior (and the new gen supposedly is making efforts in this direction), and fit and finish (especially inside), then the come back story can continue.

On a purely subjective level, I share the deep aversion for Caddy designs but that is of course a very personal thing.

[Bimmerista]

Originally Posted by vladinecko

also, as clarkson said at the end, a vast majority of american cars are very cheaply made, including the cadillac. and that's why it is kind of insulting to go and see a car made of plastic with reliability of the first british tank, exciting as an old lady on a walker, attractive as larry king and they have the balls to ask $50k - $100k for it. i simply don't get their marketing strategy.

[deutschmann59]

I don't know, when I think of cadillac, I don't really think "sports car"

Cadillac's halo should be similar to the BMW 7-series. The car should be similar to the deville's current styling, but it should be a monster and have better design cues. It should have a 8-cylinder or optional 12-cylinder engine, but still perform like the M5.

I think they were sort of on the right track with the Cadillac Sixteen concept, but it never went anywhere.


Of course, the alternate argument is that would mean cadillac would then put that model into an "ultra-luxury" segment and perhaps GM isn't quite yet ready for that.

[ward]

Originally Posted by sharp1183

That's true. I also forgot to mention the fact that most GM and Ford vehicles will run on that new E85 ethynol fuel. So I guess they are trying, maybe just not hard enough, though.

keep in mind that you get less mileage from E85 than from an equivalent volume of gas......

[vladinecko]

Originally Posted by ward

keep in mind that you get less mileage from E85 than from an equivalent volume of gas......

well, the point is that it's renewable and not harmful to the environment. and once it starts mass production and all modern engines will work fine with it, i'm sure we'll also see significant savings in price.