[Kiemyster]

Originally Posted by BTM

This isn't a very smart way to go about forming opinions.
The research states the exact contrary, but you've dismissed this without seeing it.
The most ineffective way of immigration control (the most effective being enforcement on the hiring/employment side)
Illegal immigration is FAR from the problem with compulsory public education.
Not at all supported. Taxpayers have a much higher burden on supporting legal, non-contributing citizens than they do on illegal ones. But again, you've naively dismissed any actual academic research I will be posting later.
Again, they are not getting a free ride, they in fact contribute positively to economic activity. A free ride insinuates they only take and contribute nothing. This could not be further from the truth.

+1

Im just in as much shock and awe as you are my friend. This thread is very depressing, and your better off not wasting your time here.

The logic is simple, when people are legal, they have rights and benefits. When they get benefits, they suck MORE resources from us. No social secuirty for illegals to dip into and such, they simply cannot access the wide range of benefits a legal citizen is entitled to.

the fact that they do most of the hard labor in this country at wages white people or even blacks wouldnt do, they do with a smile on their face. even working below minimum wage by half they still are happy to come here and clean your toilets as they still make 4 times as much as they would back home.

the only part where I agree in this thread is that illegals should NEVER get behind the wheel of any vehicle, simply for insurance and liability purposes which are obvious and we dont need to get into.

[Kiemyster]

Originally Posted by FJUNO78

I don't care what the evidence states. I have read alot on the issue, and most, if not all of what I have read in support of undocumented workers is heavily biased. Those stats never mention the fact that an illegal's children who are born here become legal US citizens. They are entitled to social security, social security disability, food stamps, subsidized housing, free lunches, public education, medicaid, etc etc...

It's not just the illegal that is bleeding this country dry... it's their unborn children too.

I would tighten the borders, and change the law to forbid children of illegals born on US soil to be legal citizens. I would certainly not allow an illegal immigrant to enroll in any type of school, especially a public school. In NYC for instance, students are in trailers with space heaters because they ran out of seats in the classroom.

I understand if you eliminate the illegal workforce the price of goods go up. But without a doubt, taxes will go down. I lose about 35% percent of my paycheck to taxes...

If the guy in middle america can work for $10/hour and pay taxes, why does an illegal get a free ride?

im curious about the origin of all your misconceptions. what is your education background good sir?

[singular]

Originally Posted by BTM

Empirical evidence states quite the contrary. In aggregation, illegal immigrants contribute more in dollars to GDP than they cost taxpayers. This argument reminds me a lot about minimum wage (which came up in another thread recently). What "sounds good" and what "makes sense" on the surface is not at all the case in reality. There are certainly costs of undocumented immigration, but this does not make it impossible for the benefits to outweigh them. I will post these findings next time I have some free time at my home desktop.

I'm sure one could also argue that slaves contributed more in dollars to GDP than they cost the US taxpayers before the Civil War.

Ignoring existing immigration laws creates a class of sub-citizens and subsidizes entire industries by driving costs unrealistically low transferring our tax dollars into company profits.

Would it be an economic disaster to enforce our already existing immigration laws? What was the overall economic impact to enforcing slave and child labor laws?

[FJUNO78]

Wow, you made an awful alot of assumptions...

Originally Posted by BTM

This isn't a very smart way to go about forming opinions..

Like I said, everything I read that supports an ILLEGAL workforce is heavily biased. Posting a link that regurgitates the same points you posted offers no value to me.

Originally Posted by BTM

The most ineffective way of immigration control (the most effective being enforcement on the hiring/employment side) .

When did I say I was against enforcement? I am for using any and all tools available? Arrest them on the streets of NYC, round them up in the deserts, use landmines at the border etc etc....

Originally Posted by BTM

Illegal immigration is FAR from the problem with compulsory public education..

I would certainly agree there are many issues with education. But dismissing the serious problem of not having enough seats in schools surely can not be ignored.

Originally Posted by BTM

Not at all supported. Taxpayers have a much higher burden on supporting legal, non-contributing citizens than they do on illegal ones. But again, you've naively dismissed any actual academic research I will be posting later...

Obviously. When did I say otherwise? It's a numbers game. There are way more deadbeat Americans we pay for. But that doesn't mean I accept the fact the we pay for illegals. Apples and oranges argument. That's like the police department saying "Let's not focus on this string of break ins because there are way more auto thefts to worry about..."

Originally Posted by BTM

Again, they are not getting a free ride, they in fact contribute positively to economic activity. A free ride insinuates they only take and contribute nothing. This could not be further from the truth.

You can argue about many illegal / unethical activities that contribute to positive economic growth. The same can be applied to the slave trade. Again... what's your point? Not paying income taxes, is a free ride. Why do I lose over 1/3 of my check to the government?

This country is falling apart. Many reasons contribute to the problems we have; including illegal immigrants. I have been to the Phoenix area, you can't imagine the crime / gang activity from illegals.

[Simsims]

Originally Posted by FJUNO78

i don't hate on the OP. He is not the cause of the problem.

The uninsured illegal immigrant who smashed into his car, (and is about to run up a tremendous hospital bill that the taxpayers will cover once she gives birth is)

Oh, and by the way my ancestors came here in the early 1900's, and had to be sponsored and have a job when they came here. They didn't sneak in. They followed the rules, learned the language, and paid taxes.

I'm not directly bashing anyone - just saying, some of you (and us) came here like that in the first place, but became american citizens none the less. Obviously a lot of others came legally as well..

[Kiemyster]

Originally Posted by FJUNO78

You can argue about many illegal / unethical activities that contribute to positive economic growth. The same can be applied to the slave trade. Again... what's your point? Not paying income taxes, is a free ride. Why do I lose over 1/3 of my check to the government?

This country is falling apart. Many reasons contribute to the problems we have; including illegal immigrants. I have been to the Phoenix area, you can't imagine the crime / gang activity from illegals.

You loose 1/3 of your paycheck for the vast amounts of public services you use regularly. You think the illegals are out partying everynight, having a bawl? they are locked up living like prisoners, 3+ to a bedroom mostly. they dont utilize 1/10th of the things that you are taxed for using. also, your taxes are a product of who YOU put into power. The american people have elected their government, sure we got swindled, but for the most part we were in control. i digress, you pay taxes based on your demands. America wants socialsim, your going to fucking pay for it. America is the only nation that wants government giveaways without expecting to pay taxes. fucking obsurd. In europe they dont play this shit, they all know socialism means more taxes, and they happily pay it without complaining like you. Your blaming your taxes on illegals? lol, the progressive tax bracket system is a bitch, deal with it. We could have done away with it by electing a different president, but it didnt happen.

Once again, our country is falling apart because of what the politicians and figureheads are dictating for us. There are greater powers at work, and everything is going as planned for them. The government structure right now is going to be the death of this country. Everyone in power is not qualified to be there, simple as that.

[Freakazoid]

Originally Posted by Kiemyster

Once again, our country is falling apart because of what the politicians and figureheads are dictating for us. There are greater powers at work, and everything is going as planned for them. The government structure right now is going to be the death of this country. Everyone in power is not qualified to be there, simple as that.

i completely agree

[BTM]

Originally Posted by singular

I'm sure one could also argue that slaves contributed more in dollars to GDP than they cost the US taxpayers before the Civil War.

Ignoring existing immigration laws creates a class of sub-citizens and subsidizes entire industries by driving costs unrealistically low transferring our tax dollars into company profits.

Would it be an economic disaster to enforce our already existing immigration laws? What was the overall economic impact to enforcing slave and child labor laws?

Slavery and undocumented immigration are near complete opposites on all accounts. One the one hand, you had people brought to this country, against their will, and forced to work without any choice whatsoever. On the other, you have people risking their lives to enter this country, against our will, able to work a job that pays them better than they could in their home country. To compare the two diminishes the severity of the issue slavery was, IMO.

Further, there is much to be said for the institution of slavery's negative long term effect on the relatively economically depressed South East in comparison to the rest of the country which were either non-slave states, or simply not states. Again, I can cite a few things when I get some time to go through stuff on my home computer.

Allowing workers to work for what a lesser regulated labor market is not subsidizing anything, it is again, the opposite, in that it is a more efficient distribution of human capital. This is not at all to say that labor markets need to be completely unregulated, of course.

Our current immigration laws are not only unrealistic, they are ineffective, and given the amount of estimated illegal immigrants in this country now, un-enforceable. Hence this discussion.

[Kiemyster]

Originally Posted by Freakazoid

i completely agree

Originally Posted by BTM

Slavery and undocumented immigration are near complete opposites on all accounts. One the one hand, you had people brought to this country, against their will, and forced to work without any choice whatsoever. On the other, you have people risking their lives to enter this country, against our will, able to work a job that pays them better than they could in their home country. To compare the two diminishes the severity of the issue slavery was, IMO.

Our current immigration laws are not only unrealistic, they are ineffective, and given the amount of estimated illegal immigrants in this country now, un-enforceable. Hence this discussion.

this

[BTM]

Originally Posted by FJUNO78

Like I said, everything I read that supports an ILLEGAL workforce is heavily biased. Posting a link that regurgitates the same points you posted offers no value to me.

I guarantee I've got more than a few studies you haven't read, and are far from biased.

When did I say I was against enforcement? I am for using any and all tools available? Arrest them on the streets of NYC, round them up in the deserts, use landmines at the border etc etc....

I never said you were against enforcement. Though, a rational policy maker would concentrate on the most effective means of enforcement first, the most effective of which you failed to mention.

I would certainly agree there are many issues with education. But dismissing the serious problem of not having enough seats in schools surely can not be ignored.

Shortage of education is not a direct result of illegal immigration nor is it one of their offspring.

Obviously. When did I say otherwise? It's a numbers game. There are way more deadbeat Americans we pay for. But that doesn't mean I accept the fact the we pay for illegals.

Not only does the effectiveness argument I made above apply here, but you are again completely ignoring the fact that as a whole we benefit more from undocumented labor than they cost us to support.

You can argue about many illegal / unethical activities that contribute to positive economic growth. The same can be applied to the slave trade. Again... what's your point? Not paying income taxes, is a free ride. Why do I lose over 1/3 of my check to the government?

Slavery is not at all comparable to illegal immigration...what were you saying about apples and oranges? See my above post. You do not pay over 30% in income tax because of illegal immigrants, and if this is what pisses you off, you are better off tackling more relevant issues of gov't spending than the proportionally minuscule amount spent on illegal immigrants.

This country is falling apart.

No it isn't. I don't agree with the direction it's headed, but this statement is so far from true it's laughable.

Many reasons contribute to the problems we have; including illegal immigrants. I have been to the Phoenix area, you can't imagine the crime / gang activity from illegals.

I lived in Tucson for almost 5 years. There was and still is a ton of crime and gang activity. How do you know it's being committed by illegal immigrants? Can you tell me the percentage of violent crime committed by legal vs. illegal citizens? Probability says that some of it is, but those also say that it's not nearly the majority. Additionally, incentives would put illegal immigrants as less likely to commit violent crime, as participating in such activities only increases the chances they get deported.

[singular]

Originally Posted by BTM

This is not at all to say that labor markets need to be completely unregulated, of course.

Our current immigration laws are not only unrealistic, they are ineffective, and given the amount of estimated illegal immigrants in this country now, un-enforceable. Hence this discussion.

What regulations would you propose for the undocumented labor market?

How would you change the current immigration laws to make them more effective and enforceable?

[BTM]

Originally Posted by singular

What regulations would you propose for the undocumented labor market?

How would you change the current immigration laws to make them more effective and enforceable?

I would apply price theory to immigration. I find Gary Becker's take on the matter to be quite intriguing, as it addresses many of the complaints of illegal immigration while keeping the positive incentives aligned for both worker and employer.

(Keep in mind his number of $50,000 is merely for arguments sake, the market would decide what the true cost of immigration should be)

"[A] one-time fee of $50,000 would generate $50 billion a year from the current 1 million immigrants admitted to the U.S. each year, he said.

Such revenue would reduce opposition to immigration by blunting the argument that immigrants draw on U.S. resources, such as welfare, Medicaid, and schools, Becker said. “This would lead to a greater willingness to accept immigrants,” he said. “No longer could people say they’re not paying their way. They would be paying their way, not only in income taxes but in the entrance fee, so to speak.”

In order to prevent limiting immigration to only the wealthy, the government should modify the federal college loan program to help finance entry to the U.S., Becker said. “This is a form of human capital and investment, namely migration to more productive areas,” he said. “It would be natural to extend this program to help finance immigration of people who may only be willing to put up $10,000 or $15,000 of the required amount and finance the rest with a loan.”

The loan could be collected through income tax in absolute amounts or as a function of a person’s earnings, Becker said. “Employers might pay the fee,” he said. “The H1B [visa] program goes through employers entirely. Immigrants don’t have to pay anything for it. Employers might say, ‘Gee, I can get you to work. I’ll pay the $50,000. I’ll work it out with the worker, as long as you’re going to repay me for this later on.’”"

Some more:

"As with any price, one for immigration would allocate the ability to migrate to those who desired it most. Successful migrants, Mr Becker argued, would still be better off, even after paying a hefty fee for the privilege. But the receiving country would benefit, too. Adjusting the price from year to year would allow governments to retain control over how many immigrants came while responding to changing labour-market conditions. And the revenue raised might go some way to assuaging the concerns of those who oppose immigration, especially now when clever thinking is needed about ways to improve public finances. Charging $50,000 for the right to immigrate would net America $50 billion if it let in 1m immigrants, roughly as many as it currently admits legally."

[Mr Tonka]

my problem with illegal aliens is that many of them work here, make lots of money and live in squalor while sending their money back home. I have a friend who has some mexicans working for him. I ask why he supports them if they aren't here legally and he said that if he could find some citizens who do as good of work as quickly he would hire them. But they don't exist. He said that their 1099 last year was $147K. Only one guy is legal and the other 2 aren't . So that's 3 guys who are pulling in $50k a year and aside from food and shelter, don't spend a dime of it here.

[TroyDeJ]

Originally Posted by Daniel135i

Could give two shits about her unborn child, her reason for being here in the USA, or how she gets the hell out.... but she needs to be sent packing. I dont care one bit for her lazy ass, and her troubles. Everyone has troubles, and those that are decent enough to work through them shouldnt have to deal with her retarded lazy illeagal ass. Not to mention foot the bill for her. I would have called imigration on here ass, and physically restrained her as you lawfully could, and should have, untill the police showed up.

Dump her preggo ass back over the border... I hope she miscarries so we dont have to worry about another illegal using up my money to pay for her bills.


Harsh, yes, but justified. Thank you immigrants that do the legwork, and dont expect a free ride on my dime.

wow that was harsh but its true. Their whole plan is to come here and have a baby so they can stay. And to everyone saying our ancestors were immigrants, the MAJORITY of them came here through ellis and angel island legally and built this country instead of destroying it

[Freakazoid]

Originally Posted by BTM

I would apply price theory to immigration. I find Gary Becker's take on the matter to be quite intriguing, as it addresses many of the complaints of illegal immigration while keeping the positive incentives aligned for both worker and employer.

I gotta disagree with you Brian, all this would virtually do is roll back however many centuries back to the days of indentured servants. Hell for all intents and purposes I believe that's virtually what this suggestion is, is rolling back to the yesteryear, where those with the connections/money/education/whatever could afford the ship, etc ride over. Those who couldn't became indentured servants.

Indentured servitude in the modern day is a scary, scary thing.

[BTM]

Originally Posted by Freakazoid

I gotta disagree with you Brian, all this would virtually do is roll back however many centuries back to the days of indentured servants. Hell for all intents and purposes I believe that's virtually what this suggestion is, is rolling back to the yesteryear, where those with the connections/money/education/whatever could afford the ship, etc ride over. Those who couldn't became indentured servants.

Indentured servitude in the modern day is a scary, scary thing.

The political atmosphere and current legal system (ie enforcement of contracts) would prevent "indentured servitude." TBH, (generalizing) I don't give a shit if I completely don't agree with or understand what two parties willing to make a deal are agreeing upon, as long as they both agree to it, and there is a mechanism to enforce the contract, go right ahead. Is it really all that different from asking for a payroll advance? Or going into debt in a more "traditional" sense?

To me, the consensus seems to be that there are too many immigrants entering the country and not enough of them are contributing or "paying their fair share" and are "getting a free ride." There is a surplus of immigrants because it doesn't cost enough to get here (and because our enforcement efforts are focused on the most ineffective methods). Raise the price of immigration, and enforce it correctly, while raising revenue the gov't will find a way to get one way or another, and you all the sudden have a market for immigration, and anyone can tell you that all things equal, markets provide the most efficient outcomes given the alternatives.

[Freakazoid]

Originally Posted by BTM

The political atmosphere and current legal system (ie enforcement of contracts) would prevent "indentured servitude." TBH, (generalizing) I don't give a shit if I completely don't agree with or understand what two parties willing to make a deal are agreeing upon, as long as they both agree to it, and there is a mechanism to enforce the contract, go right ahead. Is it really all that different from asking for a payroll advance? Or going into debt in a more "traditional" sense?

To me, the consensus seems to be that there are too many immigrants entering the country and not enough of them are contributing or "paying their fair share" and are "getting a free ride." There is a surplus of immigrants because it doesn't cost enough to get here (and because our enforcement efforts are focused on the most ineffective methods). Raise the price of immigration, and enforce it correctly, while raising revenue the gov't will find a way to get one way or another, and you all the sudden have a market for immigration, and anyone can tell you that all things equal, markets provide the most efficient outcomes given the alternatives.

I agree with your general basis for the solution, but I think the practical application would be horrendous and would form an even more disgusting underbelly of the USA. I don't see any way that this would NOT become indentured servitude, and therefore abused. Sure there'd be a superficial 'policy' in place, but widescale application? Ehh.... There's many many many superficial policies in place that never get followed up with. But there's megabillion dollar corporations that would JUMP at the chance to have a completely dedicated worker for X years at Y price. And in terms of any regulation? Good luck with that one, these would also be the corporations that would be padding the right political pockets.

Indentured servitude was abused back when it was common place and it was on the scale of only a few people, I can't even remotely imagine what it could become if it was a case where a corporation could buy/own thousands or tens of thousands of people. Hell I could very easily see it becoming the new age version of slavery.

I would agree a utopian style world, I think it'd be great, it'd bring back things like manufacturing jobs, and bring a lot of money back to the USA. But the actual application of it would scare the crap outta me. I mean hell there's technically policies about illegal immigrants, but they still consist of 5% of the population.

[BTM]

I have these (and many, many more) as pdfs I can email for anyone interested. There is a lot of logarithmic regression I haven't included, as many of these are 20+ pages I've excerpted a few conclusions

"The Effect of Low-Skilled Immigration on U.S. Prices: Evidence from CPI Data" by Patricia Cortes, University of Chicago

"low-skilled immigration benefits the native population by decreasing the nontraded-
goods component of the cost of living. At current U.S. immigration levels, a 10 percent
increase in the average city’s share of low-skilled immigrants in the labor force decreases the
price of immigrant-intensive services such as housekeeping and gardening by 2.1 percent, and
price of the average non-traded good (in terms of intensity in the use of low-skilled immigrants)
by 0.7 percent."

"The wage effects are sizeable but plausible: a 10 percent increase in the
number of low-skilled immigrants in a city reduces the wages of low-skilled natives by 1 percent
and of low-skilled immigrants by 8 percent (an own-labor demand elasticity of -1.2). My results
imply that the low-skilled immigration wave of the 1990s increased the purchasing power of
high-skilled workers living in the 25 largest cities by an average of 0.6 percent and decreased the
purchasing power of native high school dropouts by an average of 1.3 percent. I conclude that,
through lower prices, low-skilled immigration brings positive net benefits to the U.S. economy
as a whole, but generates a redistribution of wealth: it reduces the real income of low-skilled
natives and increases the real income of high-skilled natives."

"why the literature has repeatedly
found that immigration has little impact on the wages of low-skilled natives: low-skilled immigrants
and low-skilled natives are far from being perfect substitutes in production. Therefore,
a low-skilled immigration shock should affect the wages of other low-skilled immigrants mostly
and the wages of low-skilled natives least."



"The Logic of Illegal Immigration" by Gordon Hansen, Council on Foreign Relations

"Illegal immigration is a persistent phenomenon in part because it has a strong
economic rationale. Low-skilled workers are increasingly scarce in the United States,
while still abundant in Mexico, Central America, and elsewhere. Impeding illegal
immigration, without creating other avenues for legal entry, would conflict with market
forces that push for moving labor from low-productivity, low-wage countries to the highproductivity,
high-wage U.S. labor market.

If foreign labor wants to come
to the United States and U.S. business wants to hire these workers, then creating
cumbersome legal channels through which labor could flow would give employers an
incentive to eschew the new guest workers and continue to hire unauthorized workers
instead. Were new legislation to combine stronger border and interior enforcement with
an unattractive guest worker program, it would be pitting policy reform against itself,
with only one of these components likely to survive in the long run.

During U.S. economic expansions, there would
be more employers searching for foreign workers. Similarly, during economic
contractions in Mexico and elsewhere, there would be more foreign workers advertising
their availability to take jobs abroad. Keeping the number of visas fixed over time, as is
the case now, means that during boom times U.S. employers have a stronger incentive to
seek out illegal labor. One way to make the number of visas granted sensitive to market
signals would be to auction the right to hire a guest worker to U.S. employers. Congress
would determine the appropriate number of visas to issue under normal macroeconomic
conditions. The auction price that clears the market would reflect the supply of and
34
demand for foreign guest workers. Increases in the auction price would signal the need to
expand the number of visas available; decreases in the price would indicate that the
number of visas could be reduced. By setting a range in which the auction price for a visa
right would fluctuate, Congress could ensure that flows of guest workers into the U.S.
economy would help stave off demand for unauthorized labor."

[CollinsE90]

[BTM]

Originally Posted by Freakazoid

I would agree a utopian style world, I think it'd be great, it'd bring back things like manufacturing jobs, and bring a lot of money back to the USA. But the actual application of it would scare the crap outta me.

In my opinion it's not much different from a lot of the institutions we currently have in place, it all depends on how you want to define things. How about companies that would provide workers with a place to live, food, at a reduced wage, such as was the case with many mining towns? Indentured servitude? Not technically, as long as both parties agreed to it, not my place to say what and what not to do, as long as I'm not being forced to partake in it should I choose not too. This is where the ridiculousness of the comparison between immigration and slavery begins...

That a lot of outsourcing has been in manufacturing, trade theory shows as irrelevant. I need to go work on my car so will be short here but for a general gist of it look up relative and comparative advantage, autarky, and indifference curves of both large and small countries...I could go on...what a country produces is not indicative of it's economic success, rather it's that they are producing/exporting what they are comparatively better (cheaper) at and consuming/importing what others are better (cheaper) at. In many cases, undocumented immigrant labor has the comparative advantage over native labor, and surprise surprise, there are a undocumented laborers here. Given the assumptions that people are rational and respond to incentives, you can't entirely legislate how things "should" be as good as that feels to think, it's impractical and is pareto ineffecient, IE everyone could be made off better.

[FJUNO78]

Originally Posted by Kiemyster

im curious about the origin of all your misconceptions. what is your education background good sir?

Not that my education is relevant, but I will humor you. I have an undergrad degree in business with a minor in economics. I also have a MBA in international finance.

Engaging in debate with someone like you is pointless. You can provide whatever statistics you wish. The cookie jar is only so big, and alot of people have their hands in it. Eventually, the working stiff (middle and upper middle class) will have to provide more cookies for those who want them.

What benefits do I get? Shitty roads, over crowded schools, increased insurance costs, higher water taxes, property taxes? I never said illegals are the sole reason for any of these issues. But why are they entitled to earn a wage free of taxes? If the poor guy working in mcdonalds contributes, so should everyone.

There is a ton of illegal mexicans living in the next town over from me. They are out every morning looking for work. If they don't get picked up, many of them drink in front of the train station. This neighborhood was once beautiful and well kept. Now it's filthy and run down. They earn enough to live like humans, but they decide to live 6 to a bedroom in filth. An apartment with one bathroom and 14 guys is the reason it smells like urine in the street.

I have no sympathy for illegals or anyone who supports them. Even if there is just one violent crime commuted by an illegal against a US citizen, it's one too many.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by BTM

How OP handles a situation involving himself and another party should be entirely his decision. Wishing ill upon him or his belongs is childish and immature. Do some academic research on immigration, specifically undocumented immigration, and you may (rightfully) discover a net positive in terms of economic utility rather than hiding your nationalist rhetoric behind the legality of an ineffective and outdated mechanism for immigration.

Sure, it's his decision to handle his situation as he sees fit. But when you post to a public forum, you invite the public to the issue.
I agree that wishing ill upon him is immature and ignorant.

Now, on to your further comments.
Yes, it is true that there is economic benefit to the US. Still, those companies that hire illegals are also committing a crime. Many of those companies hire illegals so that they can have higher profits that they attain by not paying illegals proper wages, not paying for health care, and not paying the employer portion of wage taxes.
Many of those employees then spend only some of their money in the local community where the only benefit is state sales tax on good and services used. However, much of the earned money is sent to mainly Mexico where the Mexican economy gains. I'm more concerned about the US economy gaining.
I'm sure some communities with lager illegal populations have an increase in business, and thus a need for more workers, but we are talking low paying jobs that are probably staffed with illegals.


Overall, as much as there is some economic gain from illegal workers, there is a lot of economic drain and burden on the local, state, and federal dollars as it's spent on extra policing of illegals, processing of illegals, transportation back to their country. Then there is even more tax payer money spent on educating illegals children who happen to be born in the US, who then claim a right to a public education in which the parents didn't pay a dime towards.
There are medical needs for illegals where the hospitals give care, but who pays for it? The legal community does by paying in higher costs to cover those illegals who can't pay.

I keep hearing and reading that the "system is broken" or "ineffective", and these people are "undocumented" instead of calling them "illegal".
They are "undocumented" because they come here illegally. The system appears "broke" because illegals don't care to abide by the laws and not come here in the first place.
The term "undocumented worker" shouldn't be used in place of
"illegal immigrant".

I agree that some of our immigration laws need to be changed, especially for our southern neighbors. I would welcome a documented "immigrant worker" program for example.
However, until the current system is changed the laws stand as written.

It's not nationalist rhetoric to ask that illegal immigrants be held accountable for their actions. US citizens are not hiding behind immigration laws by asking that when an illegal commits a crime, they get deported.
US citizens are bound by laws, so then illegals certainly shouldn't be allowed to break them without penalty.

Simply saying "the system is ineffective and outdated" isn't an intelligent, thought out comment. It's rhetoric from some who feel the laws are inconvenient for what they want.
You challenge that people should educate themselves on US immigration laws, and illegal worker effects on economics.
Just because someone may not share your view that doesn't mean they are not educated.