[03BeastCharmer]

I don't know what the forms say today, but I did the 2 day M School back in 2009, and the instructors specifically said NYC. Not Your Car. They wanted you to push your limits, but not be stupid. They also said someone had put a E60 M5 into the barrier. It had only happened like once in many years, but the participant wasn't responsible. Granted I didn't put that to the test by trying to wreck a car or person, and I don't know if they have changed it after some bad experience, but at the time they said we weren't liable when the questions was asked in class, and they responsed..... NYC

[vexingv]

Agree, and for this reason I'm looking at the "advanced" M-schools as well. They are expensive, but I don't have to worry about the car and insurance etc.

I considered the 'Ring as well but was advised I needed to gain more experience via some of the Advanced M School offerings (I have very little aside from the M School) before attempting the 'Ring.

Originally Posted by evanevery

The fact of the matter is that BMW Driving Schools simply do not hold students liable in this manner. They may have a waiver in the paperwork, but I've NEVER heard of anyone being held accountable for any damages which may have occurred.

If the OP's intent is to "MAKE STUDENTS AWARE" of the situation so they can "make up their minds for themselves", then they would be better served if they knew how the school ACTUALLY operates - and not what the boiler-plate in their agreement says.

The truth is that you DO NOT need to source any additional insurance for the BMW driving schools. I've seen more than a few unfortunate events and I've never heard of anyone ever being charged for damages of any type.

Rather than posting misleading headliner's on Bimmerpost, please tell us of a SINGLE case where anyone has ever been held liable for damages incurred at a BMW driving school. No one is happy about these events, but they do occur, and the staff at the driving school (unlike the source of the OP's info) understands this.

Additional Insurance is quite simply NOT needed or required. I'm hoping more driving school alumni can chime in with their experiences as well...

[Mandi90TT]

All the verbal assurances mean very little (despite the law saying a verbal contract is in fact a valid contract) when lawyers get involved. And yeah, it may be this way now, or in the past, but as someone mentioned, all it takes is a bean counter and an ambulance chaser, both at BMWNA to think of all the money they could make/save.

I guarantee you that the waiver is not being required of all participants just because, or for no reason.

[LemonOne]

From my past experience, ALWAYS go to Porsche Club events.
I hate to go to BMW CCA events because:

1. Rules and regulations are very strict compare to P-club
2. Over-priced ($100+ more track fees compare to P-club)
3. Cocky slow drivers (most of them are new to track and often don't know what they're talking about)
4. P-club just has better drivers (very friendly) and better cars (more exotic)

Skip BMW events if you can, I personally do not recommend.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Jono2112

If you sign a waiver assuming the company won't enforce it you're playing with fire. As soon as a new lawyer for the company sees that waiver after an accident they will have every right to try and enforce it.

I agree. I can't imagine why anyone would rely on word-of-mouth assurances or internet testimonials to get comfortable with signing a waiver with terms on the presumption they won't be enforced if something were to occur. If there is no chance they will enforce such terms (as many here strongly contend), there is no reason for those terms to be in the waiver and they should be removed. If they really want people to buy insurance then we just need to know where to buy it.

[FogCityM3]

Originally Posted by 03BeastCharmer

I don't know what the forms say today, but I did the 2 day M School back in 2009, and the instructors specifically said NYC. Not Your Car. They wanted you to push your limits, but not be stupid. They also said someone had put a E60 M5 into the barrier. It had only happened like once in many years, but the participant wasn't responsible. Granted I didn't put that to the test by trying to wreck a car or person, and I don't know if they have changed it after some bad experience, but at the time they said we weren't liable when the questions was asked in class, and they responsed..... NYC

This is exactly what they told us (including the car in the wall story) and I don't recall signing a waiver unless it was online, but think I signed up via phone to get the CCA discount. Anyway taking away the insurance reflects the same corporate greed that charges for assist and curtails their service/warranty coverage

[BEMR]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Woah interesting.

fetus, love ya man..

[MikeR90]

I took the 1 day M-school in fall of 2015. the stability control was on when we did anything other than the 300' skid pad at 30mph, They kept us pretty far apart on the track and didn't let us brake too late for the corner at end of the longest straight. It was quite pretty safe.

If insurance had been available I probably would have declined, as I usually self-insure for collision damage.

[pz619]

So while I didn't wreck a car, the DCT failed spectacularly while we were on the track. I half expected them to bring us a bill. They didn't care. They just immediately brought another M6 for us to drive. My guess it's more of a scare tactic so you don't try to play bumper cars then walk away. If you aren't comfortable signing, I totally get it. But I think in real life they just don't want to have to pay for someone intentionally destroying their cars.

YMMV

[RobbyMack]

You do take a risk, but IMHO this won't hold up in court. Good luck getting a judge (worse yet a jury) to agree a liability release is valid when it is so broad (it even acknowledges how broad it is) and claims that you sign it "willingly" when it's also clear you can't participate if you don't sign this already admittedly broad release. I agree with other posters, I personally wouldn't sign something like this, but it's practical application is likely limited to worst case scenario which is why you don't hear other "horror" stories from members who've been held liable for damage to vehicles. Now if you go out there, plow through a barrier, and take out some spectators then sure you're probably going to see this thing shoved in your face. Your primary personal auto policy might exclude this type of liability but it's likely covered under an umbrella (if you're reading this you need an umbrella policy) depending on how that's written.

[chmura]

I signed a waiver at Thermal few months ago. I did not read it. I was careful driving because my wife and kid were in the car on some courses.

There was 100 people in my group and no one had any issues not signing it.

The only thing I did not do was during the big track courses when you were following a BMW race instructor. When it was my partners time to drive and I did not want to be in the passenger seat (we took turns driving). It made me nervous being in a passengers seat of a stranger going 140mph on the straights.

[ilya335]

I was invited to the Thermal Driving school last year and remember signing some waiver as well. I did not read over it but I did not have to provide any insurance information.

I have been wanting to do the M performance school for a long time but will definitely have to reconsider if I am responsible for their vehicles. It's expensive enough as it is and I would expect them to have proper coverage for that money.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

All the verbal assurances mean very little (despite the law saying a verbal contract is in fact a valid contract) when lawyers get involved. And yeah, it may be this way now, or in the past, but as someone mentioned, all it takes is a bean counter and an ambulance chaser, both at BMWNA to think of all the money they could make/save.

I guarantee you that the waiver is not being required of all participants just because, or for no reason.

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

I agree. I can't imagine why anyone would rely on word-of-mouth assurances or internet testimonials to get comfortable with signing a waiver with terms on the presumption they won't be enforced if something were to occur. If there is no chance they will enforce such terms (as many here strongly contend), there is no reason for those terms to be in the waiver and they should be removed. If they really want people to buy insurance then we just need to know where to buy it.

Fair points, and a degree of cynicism is warranted when any corporation wants you to sign off on such a document. You also have the right to consider the worst case scenario.

But with almost any activity there are practical, realistic liability concerns, and theoretical, unlikely liabilities.

Based upon everything we know and the entire history of the School, BMW's Driving School falls into the latter category.

In the context of HPDE there is inherent, unavoidable risk. The fair comparison is between the liabilities and risks of BMW's School vs others, not BMW's school and staying at home on the couch.

As compared to the vast majority of driving schools/track days, and certainly what I've seen/experienced at track days over the past decade, BMW's school has to be one of the least risky options out there for a beginner. From nearly every perspective.

So why is the clause in there at all? Presumably to give them an advantage against anyone who comes to the School and wreaks havoc. And honestly, I think they're entitled to that legal advantage.

The moment we learn of any well-meaning participant being held financially responsible for a beginner mistake on track, then I'll be the first to speak out against the policy. Until then, I'd hate to see potential participants opting out of the school on this basis.

[evanescent03]

skip barber offered an optional insurance to cover damages when I did their 2 day high performance and advanced HP classes. I like the idea of not using my car but I won't do those again ... if u want to do it once in your life or once every couple years it might make sense, but the value of doing a HPDE weekend is so much better of a value, even with Lockton insurance or similar. I'd love to do the Audi R8 experience at Sonoma but I hate having to buy the newbie classes to work my way up and still pay that large amount for less seat time than I'd get in my own car for a weekend event.

[bradleyland]

Everyone has to keep in mind that these two circumstances are not mutually exclusive:

A) BMW PC has you sign a waiver that puts you over a barrel should they choose to pursue damages.

B) BMW PC doesn't normally attempt to recover damages from participants.

It's been alluded to a couple of times in this thread, but waivers like this are always written to be grossly in favor of the party seeking to disclaim liability. This is true of contracts in general; the contract is normally written in favor of the authoring party. In this case, BMW PC want the document written so that they have 100% discretion in pursuing damages.

Now, I'm not saying that everyone should just lay down and sign the waiver. That's every individual's choice, but both A & B (from above) should be considered. Historically, BMW PC's discretion tends toward lenience.

My personal evaluation is that you'd have to screw up really badly to end up on the hook. The line — again, in my view — is crossed at injuring someone other than yourself, or injuring yourself, then attempting to go after BMW PC. Remember that in civil matters, someone has to file a claim before anything will happen. No claim, no effect.

If you overcook a corner and stuff the car, BMW PC isn't coming after you, because that would be bad for business. Who would attend a driving school with a reputation for crap like that? The schools are structured so that it'd be hard for you to hurt someone else unless you do something egregious. I can guarantee you that if you were to injure someone else, the moment they file a claim against BMW PC, that waiver is coming back to haunt everyone really quickly.

So at the end of the day, you have to evaluate the risk of signing a waiver that isn't in your favor. Any risk evaluation has to weigh the practical effect, not the theoretical, and that is where everyone will differ. Some people have more to risk. Some people have better insurance. If you're risk averse, maybe a performance driving school isn't the right fit.

[PackPride85]

The ring is especially dangerous money wise since its a public toll road. You're responsible for your accident and any damage you do to other cars AND the track. It's $1000 per meter to replace the barrier and they charge a minimum of 3 meters (even if they just bang out the dent they'll still charge).

[shivaswrath]

Or pay $349 per CCA HPDE!

[Who's on first]

Doesn't matter what's the norm. What matters is what's in writing.

[igom3]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

Not in reference to this incident, but related, something a couple of posts have referred to: Very few (if any) normal insurance policies cover track day events anymore. USAA used to, but not anymore. If you want track day insurance, you have to buy it from a specialty insurance company.

+1
Im in insurance field(multiple companies) and like you said almost all of them exclude track use for liability and physical damage. They had wording before only for competition and timed events, but few years back they added using your car on any track surface including pits and surrounding areas. So before you think your insurance company will cover your car think twice. They are fiew insurance companies that would cover your car up to desired amount, but I don't know if they would cover non-owned cars such as BMW M school etc...

[igom3]

Read exclusions under your policy, and if needed consult attorney. Don't take your agent's words for granted before is too late. I hope this helps little bit

[igom3]

Few years ago guy wrecked his car doing track event and he tried to tell insurance company that he was involved in road accident by him self. Somehow insurance company found out he was lying and declined the claim. He almost got prosecuted for insurance fraud. This thing cost him thousands in attorney's fees car damage and he almost got jail time. Insurance companies are looking for any excuse not to cover your loss. Be careful what you do.

[punky8d]

Thanks for sharing. Just ignore haters. lol