[seccsc]

BMW could lower the fuel consumption in a MT to put it on par with a DCT by adding a 7th gear. Similar to what Chevrolet has done with the Corvette. I would buy a 7 forward gear MT if it was offered.

[VCP]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I would point out that a FWD M vehicle was never really expected to begin with.

However, an AWD performance vehicle built on a FWD platform is a different animal, and this is what most of us would expect from M Division if they were do a UKL based M product. Van Meel wasn't asked about that specifically, and as a result his answer did not address that possibility either.

Not that I think a proper M vehicle based on the UKL platform is necessarily coming, mind you. I am just saying that it is still very much a possibility in the not-so-distant future.

Agree

[Richbot]

Bmw went to turbocharging in the M cars for parts commonality with the non M cars and efficiencies of scale particularly with the 4.4l. The M engineers are mad geniuses to have pulled off such immense power from the smallest engines in their competitive set under those constraints.

Look no further than American muscle for why the "emissions and fuel economy made us do it" excuses are utter nonsense

[M3 Number 86]

#RESISTAWD

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Not long ago, spokespeople from the M division said: there won't be AWD M cars. Now they say there won't be FWD M cars...

But let's see what happens in the future.

I'm sure that the next M2 will be based on the Mini/1 Series FWD platform and will have FWD based AWD with a transverse turbo 2 liter 4 cylinder.... BMW will have copied Mercedes and their AMG 45...

When this happens, it will be the beginning of the end for the M division...

Mark my words.

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Bmw went to turbocharging in the M cars for parts commonality with the non M cars and efficiencies of scale particularly with the 4.4l. The M engineers are mad geniuses to have pulled off such immense power from the smallest engines in their competitive set under those constraints.

Look no further than American muscle for why the "emissions and fuel economy made us do it" excuses are utter nonsense

Alfa did better with their Ferrari-based twin turbo 2.9 liter V6 and 510 hp... This is not mad engineering. By the way BMW did make a 1400hp 1.5 liter turbo formula one engine in the 80's... Now that WAS mad engineering!

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by Doctor///M

Keep buying manuals folks!!!

It's the US market that is saving the manuals. In Europe the overwhelming majority buy the dual clutch versions...

[S65V8]

Originally Posted by jpnh

The other aspect of turboshargers on M cars is that its really hard to tell they're turbo charged.....the implementation feels more like NA

I agree BMW's FI approach is pretty good, but the power delivery is simply different between the two engines, and you really feel that on road and track. Less about turbo lag, but more about the linear and increasing delivery to redline.

Ultimately, the F82 is a marvel in its own right, better than a E92 on the track dynamically in every way, just not feelin "the love" and soul anymore in this car. The E92 for some reason had oodles and oodles of soul and specialness ,despite being the "lesser" performance car. Who knows, maybe because it was my first M car, and there's just a special place for it...

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

Not long ago, spokespeople from the M division said: there won't be AWD M cars. Now they say there won't be FWD M cars...

But let's see what happens in the future.

I'm sure that the next M2 will be based on the Mini/1 Series FWD platform and will have FWD based AWD with a transverse turbo 2 liter 4 cylinder.... BMW will have copied Mercedes and their AMG 45...

When this happens, it will be the beginning of the end for the M division...

Mark my words.

Next 2er is still RWD/xDrive.

[adc]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Bmw went to turbocharging in the M cars for parts commonality with the non M cars and efficiencies of scale particularly with the 4.4l. The M engineers are mad geniuses to have pulled off such immense power from the smallest engines in their competitive set under those constraints.

Look no further than American muscle for why the "emissions and fuel economy made us do it" excuses are utter nonsense

American muscle doesn't really sell in Europe, or the rest of the world for that matter. The M3 was/is primarily engineered so it can be sold in Europe and Germany first, the USA second. In Europe, emissions do count.

The biggest issue I have with the M division, by far, is that they are not building a halo car a la R8. If they did, more people would take notice, and people like me would have an aspirational model up. As it stands, my aspirational models are Porsches and Ferraris, really sad. And not good for the brand, because if people start switching it's hard to get them back...

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

It's the US market that is saving the manuals. In Europe the overwhelming majority buy the dual clutch versions...

I have friends in Sweden that say otherwise

The MT is alive and well over there as well

We were even provided a rental that had a MT

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Next 2er is still RWD/xDrive.

SCOTT26: is the chassis from the next 3 Series then?

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by adc

American muscle doesn't really sell in Europe, or the rest of the world for that matter. The M3 was/is primarily engineered so it can be sold in Europe and Germany first, the USA second. In Europe, emissions do count.

The biggest issue I have with the M division, by far, is that they are not building a halo car a la R8. If they did, more people would take notice, and people like me would have an aspirational model up. As it stands, my aspirational models are Porsches and Ferraris, really sad. And not good for the brand, because if people start switching it's hard to get them back...

The main reason is taxation: fiscal power (displacement) and high emission are highly taxed in most European countries. Also gas is much more expensive in Europe because of taxes again. these are the major obstacles for the lack of muscle car sales. when you have the right product: ie the new mustang, it sells like hot cakes (being smaller is also better for narrower European roads). The same applies for Australia where there is a 2 year waiting list for the Mustang...

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Bmw went to turbocharging in the M cars for parts commonality with the non M cars and efficiencies of scale particularly with the 4.4l. The M engineers are mad geniuses to have pulled off such immense power from the smallest engines in their competitive set under those constraints.

Look no further than American muscle for why the "emissions and fuel economy made us do it" excuses are utter nonsense

What motor is in the Ford F-150?

What motor is in the Ford Expedition ?

What motor is also in the Ford Mustang along with an optional V8 ?

An ecoBOOST TURBO.. six ! Please tell us why you feel that Ford has done this ? Are they following BMW ?

A few years ago you could get a Ford Explorer with a V8 option but I doubt you can now.

Have you noticed that Chevrolet/BUICK has been putting turbo 4 cylinders in their cars ??

Look no further than the Disappearing American muscle ...


Let's not to mention other manufacturers like Ferrari going from the NA 458 to the turbo 488.

What's going over at Porsche ?

Porsche Panamera- Turbo
Macan - Turbo
Boxster cayman 718 - 4 cyl Turbo

CAFE restrictions are going to take another step up with 2016 models .. see the following article. Within that article is a chart showing how much manufacturers have paid in fined over the years.

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/07/18/c...ase-mpg-nhtsa/

One manufacturer that hasn't paid a US cafe fine in the 21st century is MERCEDES. Can you say " Super charger " ?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

I'm sure that the next M2 will be based on the Mini/1 Series FWD platform and will have FWD based AWD with a transverse turbo 2 liter 4 cylinder.... BMW will have copied Mercedes and their AMG 45...

We already have the model codes for the next generation 2 Series coupe and convertible: G42 and G43. As you may be aware, UKL vehicles retain chassis codes with the "F" prefix while CLAR use "G". So, the 2-door 2 Series, including the M2, will be RWD for at least one more generation.

Incidentally, the hatchbacks, with chassis codes F40 and F41, are confirmed to be moving to UKL. There is also an F44 which could be an all new model (such as a 2 Series Gran Coupe) or perhaps it is simply the next generation 2 Active Tourer.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

It's the US market that is saving the manuals. In Europe the overwhelming majority buy the dual clutch versions...

With all due respect ... dude, what are you smoking?

This is patently not true. Manuals have never, ever been popular in the U.S. as a percentage of total sales of a model. In fact, as recently as 10 years ago, the proportion of manuals vs. autos sold was:

U.S. - roughly 9 autos for one manual
Europe - roughly 6 manuals for one auto
Japan - roughly 5 manuals for one auto

In Europe and Japan, manuals still out-sell autos by a considerable margin -- though the percentage is shrinking, of course.

Compare the above to manual sales in the U.S., which is currently about 3 percent of cars sold. This is down from slightly above 7 percent in 2010.

And in your home country of Australia, 15 percent of cars sold were manuals in 2013 -- and that number is now about 8 percent.

Please don't spread propaganda based on your home country's tendencies. U.S. posters do it all of the time on this board. Your country's rules do not apply to the entire frakking world.

[ouengineer]

I though the comments about auto vs manual were interesting. Pretty much echoed my sentiments. At times, I miss not having a manual to feel more involved and in control but it's more for nostalgia reasons. The ZF 8-spd is a seriously cool transmission from an engineering standpoint.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...eed-automatic/

[raysspl]

They say all these things now...

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by ouengineer

I though the comments about auto vs manual were interesting. Pretty much echoed my sentiments. At times, I miss not having a manual to feel more involved and in control but it's more for nostalgia reasons. The ZF 8-spd is a seriously cool transmission from an engineering standpoint.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...eed-automatic/

Tesla's "auto pilot" is interesting and an impressive bit of admittedly still flawed engineering

flawed part aside, just because its impressive doesnt mean I personally would want it.

When a car comes out that will allow me to be as involved as I want to be but simultaneously offer me the option of legally driving me home from a night out after having a few too many I'll line up for it

Until then I'll choose to row my own and stick to having one beverage when I'm the DD

[clbmw]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Next 2er is still RWD/xDrive.

And the next M140i? :

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by clbmw

And the next M140i? :

Will be an XDrive M35i same as the incoming X1/X2 and Chinese made 1er Sedan.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

With all due respect ... dude, what are you smoking?

This is patently not true. Manuals have never, ever been popular in the U.S. as a percentage of total sales of a model. In fact, as recently as 10 years ago, the proportion of manuals vs. autos sold was:

U.S. - roughly 9 autos for one manual
Europe - roughly 6 manuals for one auto
Japan - roughly 5 manuals for one auto

In Europe and Japan, manuals still out-sell autos by a considerable margin -- though the percentage is shrinking, of course.

Compare the above to manual sales in the U.S., which is currently about 3 percent of cars sold. This is down from slightly above 7 percent in 2010.

And in your home country of Australia, 15 percent of cars sold were manuals in 2013 -- and that number is now about 8 percent.

Please don't spread propaganda based on your home country's tendencies. U.S. posters do it all of the time on this board. Your country's rules do not apply to the entire frakking world.

Manuals are still popular in Europe especially in small city cars with preemptive gear changing to maximise Efficiency. In other words for BMW a feature of EfficientDynamics in action.
The argument however is that manuals are done in vehicles like the M5 as they are no longer justifiable for extra development costs especially if the take off has fallen to justify no sustainability within the development programme.