[SCOTT26]

This was posted by me.

More info as of 9/11/14:

The Z4 becomes the Z5 and will share with a Toyota as will a Z3 Both are RWD.
The engineering schematics for the Carbon intensive architecture is impressive. You are going to see so much for so little with the combined force of BMW and Toyota using all their resources available.

BMW wants to re-invent its Z series sports cars and make them as cutting edge and influential as the BMWi models by visual appearance and state of the art engineering to highlight a new BMW philosophy for sports cars.

Vision ConnectedDrive and 328 Homage concepts are the template for the visuals. Plans also include a slightly massaged three cylinder entirely unique and exclusive in the Z3 Mille Miglia mimicking the classic 328 to provide excellent dynamics using lightweight materials.

[MacOSR]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

My fact check rates this as: FALSE.

The intro year for the C6 has almost the same sales (37,288) as for the C6 entry year (37,372 in 2005).

While there was a drop off (as with all companies from 2008) .. Clearly more time will tell, as we examine sales from 2015 models and further into the future... however the data shows that sales of the corvette are on the rise again... and from a first year perspective.. there is no drop off at all.




The 911 #s you posted show an INCREASE in sales of 911s to 28K in 2012. this figure was only matched or exceeded in 2002,2003, and 2006-2008 (before the crash)... I would like to see the last 2 years of production figures..


edit: I did find this on 2013 figures... http://press.porsche.com/news/release.php?id=839

" The Porsche 911 was especially successful last year: During its anniversary year, around 30,000 of these iconic sports cars were handed over to customers. "

So.. the 911 sales were at the least steady...if not still on the rise in 2013..

If you do a three year trending graph of sales, which removes spikes and dips, you will find that both have trended down for the past few years. It surprised me.

[i001947]

When the Z4 costs as much as a 5 series 550i or a M3 who can justify buying it. I couldn't so I bought my M3 instead.

The same argument can be made with buying any car that costs $75k plus.

BMW is guilty of cannibalism with all of these variations.

[BMW269]

Sports cars are less practical, so they than have to perform much better than equally priced sporty cars or they have to be priced well below same performing sporty cars. However as the volume is low, they cannot be profitable, unless they are unaffordable for the middle-class people. Yet, 1% have in most cases no clue about cars and can only read badges, so other than Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini, other sports cars have no chance.

Before sports cars were just that: a sports car. Today they are like watches: of no use other than indicator of social status.



The purest sports cars to have come out this decade are the GT86 and the 4C. However they are not successful. What could be the reasons? To me it looks like low performance and high price compared to practicality trade-off. But I think even then I'm mistaken. What customers want is an ALL-IN-ONE, Jack of all trades master of none: SUVs. The trends indicate them very clearly. Too bad that in the professional world (job market), "Jacks of all trades" and not wanted, but so called "experts".


Sports car need some revolution to be successful, maybe hybrid and CF. i8 and new Z will tell us if that really was it. Maybe brainwashing and manip..ehr I mean marketing could help.

[Red Bread]

Excellent post Levi. I think the reason the Carrera and the goofy 4 models are so successful is that they're great daily drivers.

I was beside a new Viper today and it looked like it was about to rattle apart over every expansion strip and bump. The BRZ has a fair ride, but it's nothing like a 911 or Cayman in terms of suppleness.

I do think that the success of the Tesla has opened the eyes of the industry towards the cache of alternative power and the i8 is an interesting toe in the pool to see if performance cars might sell with a "green" approach.

Until the M versions came along the Z3 seemed like a heavy Miata with a big price tag and a fancy badge. The first Z4 was dynamically miles ahead of the Z3 but clobbered with the Bangle Ugly Stick (BUS). The current Z4 is too big, too heavy and too expensive. Hopefully they are headed back to the cheaper, simpler end of the market.

[SHEEDI]

Originally Posted by wdeerfield

amen. you get much better value and options for a similar performing vehicle at half the cost. when a nissan altima has 260hp and all the bells and whistles a bmw has for only 26k, its hard for the everyday consumer to justify 50k for a 3 series that still doesnt have xenon headlights or fold down seats or comfort access. a 25k accord has all that and lane departure, back up camera, etc..

cant wait to see the 1k increase in cost for 2016 vehicles from bmw when the new law requiring backup cameras is implemented. bmw will reduce the screen size of that to 4in while competitors will include navi and a 9in screen.

and before the fanboys jump in.. yea yea.. driving dynamics. none of that matters to the everyday consumer. they mostly care about that lil 76mm roundel if anything. But there comes a point where lacking features and a basic looking interior drive individuals away.

+2 its true

[cncmastr]

Originally Posted by NickyC

When people don't have money, they don't buy toys (sports cars). The fact of the matter is, the middle class in the USA has been decimated over the past seven years since the financial crisis and the prior standard of living isn't coming back anytime soon. The job situation in Europe is even worse and when you have two major markets that have seen the absolute destruction of middle class jobs, you will obviously see people focus on more utilitarian vehicles and drop the sports cars.

Lambo, Ferrari, Porsche, Aston, and all the other high end makers are immune from this for now of course. The insane and unsustainable increase in asset prices due to central bank and Fed pumping over the past seven years has assured that the 0.1% will have more money than ever to blow on luxury items. This will of course come to end sooner rather than later, with another collapse like 2007 (which I imagine will be far worse the next time). Lots of rich people are rich on paper only and are highly leveraged. Once the margin calls start coming in and the herds head for the small exit door, Lambo and all the car manufacturers will see huge decreases just like they did in the last crisis.

2007 changed everything, the next phase is coming.

Well said.

[i_love_cars]

This entire thread is disappointing. I'm always encouraged by forums like these where I see a good concentration of enthusiasts, but then my hopes and dreams come crashing into the ocean of reality when I see that truly, we are a fraction of the buying population. This forum represents such a small portion of BMW owners that actually care.

There isn't a single car in BMW's lineup today that I would buy new off the lot if I had 60-80k to drop on a car. That's just the reality - as an enthusiast looking for a performance vehicle period - sports car or not - there's so much better bang for your buck out there.

I was happy to pay $25k for my 135i with 30k miles on it and with $5k into it I've got a great HPDE car with an aftermarket LSD. What else am I going to buy in BMW's lineup at a reasonable price like that?

It's disheartening to see that 10 years from now, many of us will be in a very difficult boat if looking for a pure sports car, or even an acceptable performance coupe. The landscape is changing - sure Corvette will still be around, and others, but the future is electric steering and crap like that, even in a Corvette. It will come.

I'll be the poor schmuck scouring classifieds for a 30 year old car to restore just so I can have an enjoyable driving experience.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by i_love_cars

I'll be the poor schmuck scouring classifieds for a 30 year old car to restore just so I can have an enjoyable driving experience.

That's cool, I'll be right there with you.

Pulled up yesterday next to what I THINK was a 1982(ish?) 911 and couldn't get over how awesome it looked. Small. Raw. And when it took off. I dunno. I'm quickly coming to terms with needing one in my life.

[Kiwi]

I agree the Z4 is well over priced now and the final nail in it's coffin was the hard top convertible in 2008. BMW needs to drop all hard top convertibles and go back to cloth. The Z4 and 3 series look awful with their hard tops up.

I do believe BMW is moving to some nice looking sports cars with the M4 and the upcoming M1.

[bclemans]

LOL, Porsche is still selling 911s like hotcakes.

If BMW wants to stick to its "real wheel drive" heritage, then build something that can beat the 911

If it wants to beat the Cayman / Boxster or even Audi R8, build a mid engine sports car.

[Gunzaro]

BMW needed to give the Z4 the proper M treatment. The car was so well designed exterior and interior wise for its time too....

Also love the Z4 GT models....imagine if BMW made these more mainstream!

[onatuesday]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

I agree the Z4 is well over priced now and the final nail in it's coffin was the hard top convertible in 2008. BMW needs to drop all hard top convertibles and go back to cloth. The Z4 and 3 series look awful with their hard tops up.

I do believe BMW is moving to some nice looking sports cars with the M4 and the upcoming M1.

The hard-top is a PRO in my book. If they offered a soft-top like the majority of other convertibles the Z4 would get crushed even more by the competition.

Advantages of hard-top over soft-top:
- Less susceptible to vandalism (getting cut by thieves)
- Less susceptible to getting worn out/torn
- Usually hard tops look better as soft tops often look 'cheap'
- Better insulated from extreme weather and noise

The only disadvantages are the extra weight and less storage space, but these are already significantly compromised when buying a convertible in the first place.

Except for the Japanese automakers, there are more sports cars choices than ever so I really fail to believe that there isn't a sports car market out there. BMW just needs to stop chasing Toyota and start chasing Porsche.

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by bclemans

LOL, Porsche is still selling 911s like hotcakes.

If BMW wants to stick to its "real wheel drive" heritage, then build something that can beat the 911

If it wants to beat the Cayman / Boxster or even Audi R8, build a mid engine sports car.

Except BMW can't beat them. They know that and this article is just additional proof but BMW will try to spin it to say there's no market instead of facing reality.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by i_love_cars

This entire thread is disappointing. I'm always encouraged by forums like these where I see a good concentration of enthusiasts, but then my hopes and dreams come crashing into the ocean of reality when I see that truly, we are a fraction of the buying population. This forum represents such a small portion of BMW owners that actually care.

There isn't a single car in BMW's lineup today that I would buy new off the lot if I had 60-80k to drop on a car. That's just the reality - as an enthusiast looking for a performance vehicle period - sports car or not - there's so much better bang for your buck out there.

I was happy to pay $25k for my 135i with 30k miles on it and with $5k into it I've got a great HPDE car with an aftermarket LSD. What else am I going to buy in BMW's lineup at a reasonable price like that?

It's disheartening to see that 10 years from now, many of us will be in a very difficult boat if looking for a pure sports car, or even an acceptable performance coupe. The landscape is changing - sure Corvette will still be around, and others, but the future is electric steering and crap like that, even in a Corvette. It will come.

I'll be the poor schmuck scouring classifieds for a 30 year old car to restore just so I can have an enjoyable driving experience.

Outside of the weight increase, the M235i is, IMO, an improvement over the E82 chassis. I loved my 135i, but the F22 chassis is an improvement. It retains that small-car feel, but is more stable and feels like it bobs (end-to-end) less over small humps and road perfections. Humps in the road always scared the shit out of me in my 135i, because the chassis was so easily upset. I've got limited seat time in the M235i, but my CA (who is incredible!) is happy to let me drive cars on a pretty good route that has a variety of road textures.

[Kiwi]

Originally Posted by trinim3

The hard-top is a PRO in my book. If they offered a soft-top like the majority of other convertibles the Z4 would get crushed even more by the competition.

Advantages of hard-top over soft-top:
- Less susceptible to vandalism (getting cut by thieves)
- Less susceptible to getting worn out/torn
- Usually hard tops look better as soft tops often look 'cheap'
- Better insulated from extreme weather and noise

The only disadvantages are the extra weight and less storage space, but these are already significantly compromised when buying a convertible in the first place.

Except for the Japanese automakers, there are more sports cars choices than ever so I really fail to believe that there isn't a sports car market out there. BMW just needs to stop chasing Toyota and start chasing Porsche.

Each to their own taste but your reasoning is why sports cars have lost their sports look and drive.

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by i_love_cars

This entire thread is disappointing. I'm always encouraged by forums like these where I see a good concentration of enthusiasts, but then my hopes and dreams come crashing into the ocean of reality when I see that truly, we are a fraction of the buying population. This forum represents such a small portion of BMW owners that actually care.

There isn't a single car in BMW's lineup today that I would buy new off the lot if I had 60-80k to drop on a car. That's just the reality - as an enthusiast looking for a performance vehicle period - sports car or not - there's so much better bang for your buck out there.

I was happy to pay $25k for my 135i with 30k miles on it and with $5k into it I've got a great HPDE car with an aftermarket LSD. What else am I going to buy in BMW's lineup at a reasonable price like that?

It's disheartening to see that 10 years from now, many of us will be in a very difficult boat if looking for a pure sports car, or even an acceptable performance coupe. The landscape is changing - sure Corvette will still be around, and others, but the future is electric steering and crap like that, even in a Corvette. It will come.

I'll be the poor schmuck scouring classifieds for a 30 year old car to restore just so I can have an enjoyable driving experience.

Great post.

[BMW F22]

I agree with those that said the sports car market is still very viable. I agree that the main cost is price. I got into BMW with the E46 M3. That car to me was beautiful! It had a $46k starting MSRP. Now an M3 is what, $64K starting price? I understand there's inflation and such but holy smoke. I have always been a fan of the Z car but at almost $50k starting price, it's difficult to justify spend almost $60k after options and taxes on a two-seater BMW.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by i001947

When the Z4 costs as much as a 5 series 550i or a M3 who can justify buying it. I couldn't so I bought my M3 instead.

The same argument can be made with buying any car that costs $75k plus.

BMW is guilty of cannibalism with all of these variations.

FYI even though Z4 sticker is similar to M3 the actual transaction prices are a LOT less, especially for a lease. E89 Z4 has huge discounts off MSRP and very high residuals. When I was shopping E92 M3 lease was almost 2x that of E89 Z4 even though MSRP were similar.

When the price gets to $75k plus I think the issue for BMW sports cars is Porsche and Corvette Z06

@SCOTT26 Can you please try and get us a hardtop Z5M with a carbon fiber fixed roof and the S55 from the F80? I will get that one without the need for big discounts! This time around the E89 Z4 was too softcore (limp modes so easily at the track and at least 500lb too heavy) and I would have gotten Porsche if not for the discounts on Z4

When I can lease Z435 for similar price as 135, why not get a Z4 since the performance is the same anyway, but it would be much better if I wanted to drop everything to get a Z4 because of the epic track performance

[Trued]

http://europe.autonews.com/article/2...-tastes-change

The sales of Sportscars are going down dramatically. The US market is turning towards mor SUV´s and Crossovers.

Sad but it just means that we are a unique and blessed group of M3/M4 drivers who still get that M rush. Something no SUV or Crossover can give you.

The collaboration with Toyota on jointly make a sportswear could mean that the present M3/M4 might be the "last" real BMW gasoline racer.

[X2Board]

Originally Posted by Trued

http://europe.autonews.com/article/2...-tastes-change


Sad but it just means that we are a unique and blessed group of M3/M4 drivers who still get that M rush. Something no SUV or Crossover can give you.

My X5 M gives me an "M rush".

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by X2Board

My X5 M give me an "M rush".

good point