[Doctor///M]

Originally Posted by orangeglim

This is a serious downer for me. I was planning to go to the BMW school in Spartansburg in October of this year. However, this insurance issue is a huge problem. I've got a wife and three kids, I can't afford to go, sign whatever this waiver is, and just "hope" they decide not to make me responsible for whatever happens. Sure, most of the time nothing happens, but that goes for every day life. Everyone has car insurance because of the shit that's not supposed to happen. Not being covered in any way while at the BMW school is a non-starter for me.

Don't let it be a downer. I'm sure the more the PC hears about it from their customers, the more they will be compelled to provide clear(er) information. You're already paying a premium to attend them.

[F32Fleet]

Ya I read that. This is nothing new.

BMW has very deep pockets and they need to protect themselves from some idiot(s) who thinks a big pay day is coming.

There are all sorts of scenarios (suicide, recklessness, etc.) that are out of BMW's control.

[zx10guy]

If someone is intent on suicide, I'd think a waiver or being financially responsible for any material damage wouldn't deter that individual from meeting their maker.

But I get the underlying meaning of what you're saying.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Ya I read that. This is nothing new.

BMW has very deep pockets and they need to protect themselves from some idiot(s) who thinks a big pay day is coming.

There are all sorts of scenarios (suicide, recklessness, etc.) that are out of BMW's control.

I think you may misunderstand the point in contention in this thread. No one is debating the merits of typical protective waiver language - i.e. "you participate at your own risk". I think we would all expect to sign something to that effect and no one is arguing a participant should be able to recover any type of damages from BMW if they are hurt while participating.

The debate is about the additional terms in the waiver that say participants can be held responsible for damage they cause (including damage to the cars) and stating that participants have liability insurance coverage that covers them during participation. Some say BMW never enforces those terms so you should ignore them. Others are not comfortable signing something like that, particularly since neither BMW nor anyone in this thread has identified a source from which to purchase such insurance (which is not the same as buying track day insurance for your own car).

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

I think you may misunderstand the point in contention in this thread. No one is debating the merits of typical protective waiver language - i.e. "you participate at your own risk". I think we would all expect to sign something to that effect and no one is arguing a participant should be able to recover any type of damages from BMW if they are hurt while participating.

The debate is about the additional terms in the waiver that say participants can be held responsible for damage they cause (including damage to the cars) and stating that participants have liability insurance coverage that covers them during participation. Some say BMW never enforces those terms so you should ignore them. Others are not comfortable signing something like that, particularly since neither BMW nor anyone in this thread has identified a source from which to purchase such insurance (which is not the same as buying track day insurance for your own car).

From what I've been told over the years liability waivers are paper-tigers. They're not worth the paper they're written on.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by orangeglim

This is a serious downer for me. I was planning to go to the BMW school in Spartansburg in October of this year. However, this insurance issue is a huge problem. I've got a wife and three kids, I can't afford to go, sign whatever this waiver is, and just "hope" they decide not to make me responsible for whatever happens. Sure, most of the time nothing happens, but that goes for every day life. Everyone has car insurance because of the shit that's not supposed to happen. Not being covered in any way while at the BMW school is a non-starter for me.

Perhaps you should attend the event , and go there with the understanding that ultimately if you damage something , it actually *is* your own responsibility.

Of course, the entire *intent * of the event is to

1-teach you to be a better driver
2-teach you more about the performance and safety systems that are on your vehicle.
3- to teach you how the performance and safety systems WORK on your vehicle so that, should you experience them in the wild (read: on your local streets ) you will know how to react.

So unless you absolutely FAIL completely on those three counts, you have nothing to worry about.

I'm pretty positive that BMW NA has no intentions of using a driver training event to BANKRUPT your household, however , If you lack the confidence in yourself, then I agree it's a good idea not to attend.

If you would like actual anecdotal evidence, I do have a friend who crashed a BMW vehicle while at an ultimate driver type event showcasing the 3 series.

She was driving a vehicle on the " road tour " portion of the event ( no instructor - just she and her spouse in the vehicle ) and misjudged her speed and slid into a metal barrier at Texas motor speedway. Even though it was a complete driver error , they did NOT charge her for the damages to the car ( a headlamp and bumper and fender ) and fortunately , the barrier was undamaged.

The way I see it you have from now until October to find a horror story about someone being charged for damaging a vehicle at a BMW training event at either of the Performance Centers , a DRIVE for the Cure Event , Ultimate drive - any event ... And Reevaluate from there

[Outlaw 06]

Originally Posted by evanevery

Well, that's a pretty simplistic perspective and NOT necessarily correct.

I just started doing track events regularly with my own M4 and I can assure you there is more to the cost of a track session than just admission fee's. (I'm a member at the AutoBahn Country Club). I burned through a full set of tires (factory Conti's) in just 2 full track days and I've been through my CCB pads in 4. So, $1700 for a set of Michelin PSC2's and another $600 for the CCB pads for the fronts.

So, when you think your getting away much cheaper by using your own vehicle, please don't forget to include the cost of consumables in the equation (Tires, Brakes, Gas, etc)...

- and you are using your own vehicle. So the schools effectively include the rental of several different M models for the two day events.

- and (the topic at hand), you do NOT need insurance at the M Schools so you can save on that and any headaches and expenses which come from a wrecked personal vehicle, towing, repair, and running down your personal insurance claim (or not). You do not put your own personal vehicle at risk.

- The schools also provide excellent instruction by a professional, talented, experienced staff (rather than just senior Car Club members). The BMW Instructors are all professional race drivers with considerable experience.

- The schools also typically include full room and meals at some very nice hotels and resorts (the Advanced school at VIR does not).

So, I'm all for getting some track time with your own car, but do not discount the cost of consumables - or the additional benefits provided by the BMW schools.

The BMW schools are truly "arrive and drive" with no worries on your part for gas, tires, brakes, maintenance, repairs, lodging, or meals... ...and you don't have to put your own vehicle at risk!

THIS.

Additionally, I haven’t been all that impressed with some of the BMWCCA HPDE instruction I’ve received, and I’ve even had to ignore improper driving techniques taught by my BMWCCA instructors. That’s just my experience with a handful of BMWCCA instructors though, and there are some very good ones out there who also instruct for professional driving schools.

[Jono2112]

Originally Posted by Outlaw 06

THIS.

Additionally, I haven’t been all that impressed with some of the BMWCCA HPDE instruction I’ve received, and I’ve even had to ignore improper driving techniques taught by my BMWCCA instructors. That’s just my experience with a handful of BMWCCA instructors though, and there are some very good ones out there who also instruct for professional driving schools.

Good point. They're volunteers or doing it for there own track time. The club stresses doing ride alongs and if you don't get along with an instructor they stare they will set you up with someone else. In theory you could find the best guys and gals and request them to hone your own skills. At this point any instruction would be good for me. :-)

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Perhaps you should attend the event , and go there with the understanding that ultimately if you damage something , it actually *is* your own responsibility.

Of course, the entire *intent * of the event is to

1-teach you to be a better driver
2-teach you more about the performance and safety systems that are on your vehicle.
3- to teach you how the performance and safety systems WORK on your vehicle so that, should you experience them in the wild (read: on your local streets ) you will know how to react.

So unless you absolutely FAIL completely on those three counts, you have nothing to worry about.

I'm pretty positive that BMW NA has no intentions of using a driver training event to BANKRUPT your household, however , If you lack the confidence in yourself, then I agree it's a good idea not to attend.

If you would like actual anecdotal evidence, I do have a friend who crashed a BMW vehicle while at an ultimate driver type event showcasing the 3 series.

She was driving a vehicle on the " road tour " portion of the event ( no instructor - just she and her spouse in the vehicle ) and misjudged her speed and slid into a metal barrier at Texas motor speedway. Even though it was a complete driver error , they did NOT charge her for the damages to the car ( a headlamp and bumper and fender ) and fortunately , the barrier was undamaged.

The way I see it you have from now until October to find a horror story about someone being charged for damaging a vehicle at a BMW training event at either of the Performance Centers , a DRIVE for the Cure Event , Ultimate drive - any event ... And Reevaluate from there

Dude, your attitude sucks. Rolling your eyes at someone because they're unwilling to sign a waiver that exposes their family to significant risk us just poor form. Where's your eye-rolling for BMW, who puts this ridiculous circumstance upon people in the first place?

Whether or not BMW have ever chosen to enforce the waiver is irrelevant as to the binding effect of the paper being signed.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Dude, your attitude sucks. Rolling your eyes at someone because they're unwilling to sign a waiver that exposes their family to significant risk us just poor form. Where's your eye-rolling for BMW, who puts this ridiculous circumstance upon people in the first place?

BMW paid for me to go to Germany , where i got to drive the 1M before it was made. There are many different driving training and promotional events put on by BMW and each of them gives enthusiasts an opportunity to experience cars on track and on the street.

If I had refused to sign a waiver like this I would have missed out on a hell of an opportunity.

A waiver isn't worth the piece of paper it's printed on anyway by the time a good attorney gets to it.

" driver attends BMW event and then is forced to file bankruptcy after crashing car".

If you seriously think that BMW wants that sort of headline getting to press - you must be out of your mind.

Just the bad press from such a headline would be horrible and cost them millions. Get a clue.

That waiver is there to ensure again gross negligence by a participant and keeps participants aware that they are responsible for not being completely irresponsible or for causing intentional harm.

In many ways it would be irresponsible of the company not to make participants accountable in some fashion for their actions.

" Come on down and be completely irresponsible ! "

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

That waiver is there to ensure again gross negligence by a participant and keeps participants aware that they are responsible for not being completely irresponsible or for causing intentional harm.

In many ways it would be irresponsible of the company not to make participants accountable in some fashion for their actions.

" Come on down and be completely irresponsible ! "

If someone is intent on causing damage or is otherwise capable of being grossly negligent, a waiver they sign won't prevent anything from happening. Additionally, the language in the waiver is not limited to gross negligence or intentional harm.

If they want participants to be responsible then they should make insurance available and part of the cost of participation. 120 posts in this thread and no one can point to an insurance provider that allows participants to comply with the contract they are signing.

Its really not that complicated or unreasonable to provide a contract with which both parties can comply.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

If someone is intent on causing damage or is otherwise capable of being grossly negligent, a waiver they sign won't prevent anything from happening. Additionally, the language in the waiver is not limited to gross negligence or intentional harm.

If they want participants to be responsible then they should make insurance available and part of the cost of participation. 120 posts in this thread and no one can point to an insurance provider that allows participants to comply with the contract they are signing.

Its really not that complicated or unreasonable to provide a contract with which both parties can comply.

120 posts and no insurer

How many thousands of people have been to thru the performance center over the years -

How many times has BMW NA demanded or requested that someone provide insurance?

this clearly is a non issue.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

120 posts and no insurer

How many thousands of people have been to thru the performance center over the years -

How many times has BMW NA demanded or requested that someone provide insurance?

this clearly is a non issue.

I don't know how many people participated in events there or how many (if any) have been held responsible for damage they caused. However anyone signing the waiver I got was required to agree they had liability insurance that covers their participation in the event (click link in post 33 and see #3). I'd be ok buying the required insurance if there was a source from which to buy it. So unless there is a source from which to purchase insurance no one has identified yet, participants need to sign it and agree they have insurance when they don't if they want to participate.

However, I agree it is a non-issue as long as there are plenty of people willing to sign it as is. There is no reason for BMW to change anything if that's the case. The rest of us just won't go. Unfortunate but not the end of the world.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

I don't know how many people participated in events there or how many (if any) have been held responsible for damage they caused. However anyone signing the waiver I got was required to agree they had liability insurance that covers their participation in the event (click link in post 33 and see #3). I'd be ok buying the required insurance if there was a source from which to buy it. So unless there is a source from which to purchase insurance no one has identified yet, participants need to sign it and agree they have insurance when they don't if they want to participate.

However, I agree it is a non-issue as long as there are plenty of people willing to sign it as is. There is no reason for BMW to change anything if that's the case. The rest of us just won't go. Unfortunate but not the end of the world.

Perhaps you are the type of person that when given a car and a set of instructions to not touch the DSC button, you still feel the need to push the button and go DSC OFF anyway ?

I think that waiver certainly might be in place for such a person.

if you don't feel that you can attend this sort of event without wrecking a vehicle, despite the traction control being on, then by all means I'd rather you stay home as well!


Sounds like that waiver is already doing its job

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Perhaps you are the type of person that when given a car and a set of instructions to not touch the DSC button, you still feel the need to push the button and go DSC OFF anyway ?

I think that waiver certainly might be in place for such a person.

if you don't feel that you can attend this sort of event without wrecking a vehicle, despite the traction control being on, then by all means I'd rather you stay home as well!

Sounds like that waiver is already doing its job

Nah, that's not the problem. Unfortunately, I'm just not stupid or irresponsible enough to sign the waiver presented to me without reading it.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

BMW paid for me to go to Germany , where i got to drive the 1M before it was made. There are many different driving training and promotional events put on by BMW and each of them gives enthusiasts an opportunity to experience cars on track and on the street.

If I had refused to sign a waiver like this I would have missed out on a hell of an opportunity.

A waiver isn't worth the piece of paper it's printed on anyway by the time a good attorney gets to it.

" driver attends BMW event and then is forced to file bankruptcy after crashing car".

If you seriously think that BMW wants that sort of headline getting to press - you must be out of your mind.

Just the bad press from such a headline would be horrible and cost them millions. Get a clue.

That waiver is there to ensure again gross negligence by a participant and keeps participants aware that they are responsible for not being completely irresponsible or for causing intentional harm.

In many ways it would be irresponsible of the company not to make participants accountable in some fashion for their actions.

" Come on down and be completely irresponsible ! "

You've completely missed the point. The point is that everything above is your prerogative. Which is fine. I'm not saying you shouldn't sign the thing. Hell, you can sign a decree declaring yourself King of England. It makes zero difference to me.

But you blew off a guy who said, "I'm uncomfortable signing this because I have a family to take care of." What kind of jerk rolls his eyes at a guy for saying something like that?

Last I checked, the internet is the worst place to go for legal advice. I've been on the defendant side of civil litigation before, and I can tell you that it's no picnic. Just because you've got a pile of anecdotes and some ill-informed legal opinion doesn't give you the right to go shitting all over some guy looking out for his family.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

You've completely missed the point. The point is that everything above is your prerogative. Which is fine. I'm not saying you shouldn't sign the thing. Hell, you can sign a decree declaring yourself King of England. It makes zero difference to me.

But you blew off a guy who said, "I'm uncomfortable signing this because I have a family to take care of." What kind of jerk rolls his eyes at a guy for saying something like that?

Last I checked, the internet is the worst place to go for legal advice. I've been on the defendant side of civil litigation before, and I can tell you that it's no picnic. Just because you've got a pile of anecdotes and some ill-informed legal opinion doesn't give you the right to go shitting all over some guy looking out for his family.

IMO he wasn't being a jerk but he was trying to provide perspective. I've participated in the BMW car control school in SC. It's a very controlled environment and participants act according to instructor commands. Of course there's a chance of a major mishap if someone decides to act a total idiot and BMW can't carry the liability for such a situation. IMO the sooner that a participant realizes BMW isn't on the hook for his/her stupidity the safer it is for everyone at the event.

BMW would never go after a participant over an honest accident. When I was there a driver somehow bent a valve and they put her in a new vehicle right away.

BTW..For those who are interested there are companies which provide track insurance.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

BTW..For those who are interested there are companies which provide track insurance.

If you are able to provide the name of a company that sells track insurance for a car other than your own, it would be much appreciated. I think this would solve the dilemma for those uncomfortable with the waiver terms. Thanks.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

If you are able to provide the name of a company that sells track insurance for a car other than your own, it would be much appreciated. I think this would solve the dilemma for those uncomfortable with the waiver terms. Thanks.

Lockton Motorsports

https://www.bmwcca.org/events/hpde

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Lockton Motorsports

https://www.bmwcca.org/events/hpde

I was under the impression Lockton sells insurance only for property damage to your own car with no liability coverage. Have you purchased from them when using a car provided by an event organizer? Thanks.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

IMO he wasn't being a jerk but he was trying to provide perspective. I've participated in the BMW car control school in SC. It's a very controlled environment and participants act according to instructor commands. Of course there's a chance of a major mishap if someone decides to act a total idiot and BMW can't carry the liability for such a situation. IMO the sooner that a participant realizes BMW isn't on the hook for his/her stupidity the safer it is for everyone at the event.

BMW would never go after a participant over an honest accident. When I was there a driver somehow bent a valve and they put her in a new vehicle right away.

BTW..For those who are interested there are companies which provide track insurance.

You're making the same exact argument, but fortunately without the eye rolling and condescension The problem is the you can't argue whether someone else should take on a risk. That's their prerogative. You can say, "I think the risk is minimal." OK, but that's a judgement call. The fact remains that the waiver is required, and the terms are onerous.

It can definitely be said that BMW has no track record of going after participants for mishaps. But this cannot be said:

"BMW would never go after a participant over an honest accident."

Only BMW can assert that.

This is the fundamental problem. No matter how much track record we have, BMW still requires that you sign a document that:

A) Puts all liability on you as a participant.

B) Causes you to assert that you have insurance coverage that you do not (in most cases).

Regardless of track record, that is the circumstance that you enter when you sign the agreement. Some people are OK with that, but others are not. No one should be talked down to for expressing that they're not comfortable with the risk.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

I was under the impression Lockton sells insurance only for property damage to your own car with no liability coverage. Have you purchased from them when using a car provided by an event organizer? Thanks.

Regarding the liability, your understanding is correct. They explicitly state that no liability coverage is included.

http://locktonmotorsports.com/product/hpde-insurance