[Neusser]

Originally Posted by No one

Only in a sad sense: it's FWD just as the current 1 Series. If FWD wasn't something I'd ABSOLUTELY hate to return to I'd (have) love(d) to consider a recent(/current?) Mini JCW (3 door, MT, of course) but "luckily"(?) I had an even more insurmountable reason to skip that.

I have to agree. There is no substitute for RWD, with the exception of rear-biased AWD.

Sadly, some day, BMW will probably go full FWD, as the profits over product mentality seems to have hit nearly every industry over the past 15 years or so.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Neusser

I have to agree. There is no substitute for RWD, with the exception of rear-biased AWD.

Sadly, some day, BMW will probably go full FWD, as the profits over product mentality seems to have hit nearly every industry over the past 15 years or so.

Exceedingly unlikely

[Mavus]

every model on clar platform is compromised or from an engineering point of view unoptimized

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by scotthilly

My mom has a 2018 X1 that unironically has the best steering of any bmw I've experienced. Cadillac's are good. Alfa Romeo's are my favorite. My dad had a Stelvio and it's my favorite EPAS steering today.

A 2018?! The fwd X1?! Really?! That definitely was not my experience. If you said a 2015 I wouldn’t doubt that.

[noemon]

Originally Posted by KurtsM5

Equivalent to an M5??? LOLOL are you kidding.??

Nope.

The new M5 is the M550. That is the M550 is BMW's flagship family saloon GT.

It is a family saloon and a Grand Tourer which is what the M5 is supposed to be.

The M5 on the other hand, is a heavy, bulky beast with an identity crisis.

You cannot carry the family in it, nor can you tour Europe or the US in it as it is extremely uncomfortable even in the Comfort setting, nor is it track capable, though it pretends to be, as any M3 will just kill it around the track.

Still an awesome car, but it just doesn't belong in a category.

I was always an M5 fan and started my M-career with an M5, I realy wanted to like the F90, I test drove it more than 6 times trying to convince myself that it's a good buy. It isn't. The M3 and the M550 make a lot more sense. I went with the M3 in the end as I prefer something nimble to something big that is space-ship fast.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Exceedingly unlikely

Just watch. Bit by bit.

Unless we have some kind of systemic sea change that allows interesting companies building high-quality products to build those interesting products without getting pushed out of the market.

The same pattern has been going on for at least 15-20 years. High-quality SMEs (particularly in Europe [Germany and Italy, where many of the best are located]) are forced to first manufacture overseas before finally slowly degrading quality, reducting options, and ultimately offering more mass market-oriented products. In addition, design is dumbed down and blandness ensues.

The United States is one of the worst places for this across industries--a country where nearly everything is a strip mall or McHouse subdivision, or products are reduced to the lowest common denominator.

RWD is nearly a niche-product feature these days. BMW already has many FWD models, which is something once thought impossible.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by noemon

Nope.

The new M5 is the M550. That is the M550 is BMW's flagship family saloon GT.

It is a family saloon and a Grand Tourer which is what the M5 is supposed to be.

The M5 on the other hand, is a heavy, bulky beast with an identity crisis.

You cannot carry the family in it, nor can you tour Europe or the US in it as it is extremely uncomfortable even in the Comfort setting, nor is it track capable, though it pretends to be, as any M3 will just kill it around the track.

Still an awesome car, but it just doesn't belong in a category.

I was always an M5 fan and started my M-career with an M5, I realy wanted to like the F90, I test drove it more than 6 times trying to convince myself that it's a good buy. It isn't. The M3 and the M550 make a lot more sense. I went with the M3 in the end as I prefer something nimble to something big that is space-ship fast.

IDK.

For me, when it comes to the G30/F90 cars, the M550 is an odd duck. The cars have gotten quite large, yes, but they are only about 20 cm longer than an equivalent 3.

The 5 series is pretty nimble for its size. The issue I have with the M550 is that you get the weight and nose-heaviness of the M5, but you don't get the full M suspension to deal with it.

The 540 and M5 both work for me, but the 550 just seems an oddball car. With the 540, you have a lighter, more balanced car, but a somewhat more road-oriented suspension, and with the M5, you have extra weight and less balance, but a better suspension setup for sporty driving.

With the 550, you get both the softer setup and the weight.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Neusser

RWD is nearly a niche-product feature these days. BMW already has many FWD models, which is something once thought impossible.

Let’s not overstate the facts. BMW has five fwd models. The 1 Series, 2 Series Gran Coupe (of which they sell very few), the X1, the X2, and the 2 Series Active Tourer.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Let’s not overstate the facts. BMW has five fwd models. The 1 Series, 2 Series Gran Coupe (of which they sell very few), the X1, the X2, and the 2 Series Active Tourer.

You pulled the statement out of context (most interesting)--the "niche product" statement was referring to cars in general.


As for BMW, show us the global sales numbers for the FWD models.

[scotthilly]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

A 2018?! The fwd X1?! Really?! That definitely was not my experience. If you said a 2015 I wouldn’t doubt that.

Yes, the F48! She bought it when my dad had his 2017 340i. I would bet my entire being that was the case. We had a turo 2017 330i w/thp recently and I drove them back to back - x1 steering had better weighting, and way more feedback. Guessing that's due to mini platform & systems. The x2m35i is shockingly fun too.

[scotthilly]

By the way... has anyone driven a model 3?! I just drove one for the first time - standard range rwd. I couldn't believe how good it was. I would take it over a 330i any day of the week in terms of dynamics - loves to rotate, steering feel is great, nearly no understeer. I am still shocked.

Was disappointed to get one over an a4.. nope. It was truly incredible.

[P1]

Originally Posted by scotthilly

By the way... has anyone driven a model 3?! I just drove one for the first time - standard range rwd. I couldn't believe how good it was. I would take it over a 330i any day of the week in terms of dynamics - loves to rotate, steering feel is great, nearly no understeer. I am still shocked.

Was disappointed to get one over an a4.. nope. It was truly incredible.

No, I don't think anyone has driven the most vanilla car on the road. I bet you anything you were the first one!

[baron95]

EVs will save RWD (and AWD) - you can see that most purpose designed EV platforms that are not AWD are RWD.

EVs simply have too much torque to work well on FWD without neutering the acceleration. There is also few, if any, packaging and weight/space savings advantages to go FWD on an EV.

So, it is very unlikely that BMW and any other top OEM will end up with a purely or mostly FWD line up. You can thank EVs for that.

[scotthilly]

Originally Posted by P1

No, I don't think anyone has driven the most vanilla car on the road. I bet you anything you were the first one!

to be fair, neither me nor my 5 closest friends that like cars had ever tried it since we all assumed it kinda sucked.

[Leucosticte]

Originally Posted by scotthilly

By the way... has anyone driven a model 3?! I just drove one for the first time - standard range rwd. I couldn't believe how good it was. I would take it over a 330i any day of the week in terms of dynamics - loves to rotate, steering feel is great, nearly no understeer. I am still shocked.

Was disappointed to get one over an a4.. nope. It was truly incredible.

Really? I drove a base model rwd one too and it seemed almost scary to drive fast around corners with the lack of feedback.

[Vmohan5072]

Originally Posted by scotthilly

By the way... has anyone driven a model 3?! I just drove one for the first time - standard range rwd. I couldn't believe how good it was. I would take it over a 330i any day of the week in terms of dynamics - loves to rotate, steering feel is great, nearly no understeer. I am still shocked.

Was disappointed to get one over an a4.. nope. It was truly incredible.

Tried all three variants of the Model 3 and found the dynamics surprisingly good, kinda playful. Always see the model 3's haul ass at the autocross events. Steering is very direct but, as expected there's little feedback coming out of it. But then, what modern non-M BMW is doing much better in that department?

[Ohio Enthusiast]

I'll preface that I never drove a BMW (but have always been a fan and am looking now at E88 and E93), but based on reviews the thing that was lost in the F generations is the connection to the car, especially the steering feel. For that I have a favorite Jalopnik article that goes into great detail about steering feel in F and G generation BMWs. The best quote from there is:

Van As says one key lesson his team learned is that relying on the tuning latitude afforded by electric power steering—such as automatic self-centering—tends to mute feel. This time around, they worked more on the underlying kinematics, and to good effect.

This sentiment comes up sometimes in other technical deep dive of sporty cars (Savagegeese reviews have that sometimes, as well as suspension deep dives by Auto Blog) - manufacturers used to rely on mechanical tuning to dial in the car (steering geometry, alignment specs, spring rates, dampers valving, etc.). With more and more tech and electronics in the car this tuning gets relegated to the software and the mechanical part is neglected (as it's easier and cheaper to change a few lines of code or a few parameters in the ECU tham to move a suspension hard point or change the length of a suspension arm). This gets you the objective performance (0-60, 1/4 mile, skid pad G forces, lap times) but disconnects the driver from the car.

And to the point about BMW focusing more and more on the larger market and less on enthusiasts, I read a great quote from Ford (which sadly I could never find again) that they found that normal A-to-B drivers would in fact prefer steering feel in a car. These drivers can't explain why they like a car with steering feel better than a car without steering feel, and they wouldn't go out on a test drive looking for that, but it was a clear difference in how much they liked the car after a test drive.