Anyone running Mobil 1 5W50??

[cbrf23]

TLDR: Like the title says, wondering if anyone is running Mobil 1 5W50?
If not, why? Looks like a good oil on paper...

More info:
I was comparing the product data sheets of the Mobil 1 5W50 and 0W40 to the TWS 10W60, and I was wondering if anyone is running their 5W50? It looks like a good choice on paper, but I'm by no means an expert on oil and the information presented in these sheets is nowhere near complete....
0W40 data sheet
5W50 data sheet
10W60 MSDS

I see a lot of people are running the Mobil 1 0W40 with good results, but can't find anyone who is running their 5W50 and I'm just curious why.

I did a search, but all I could find on 5W50 was someone asking about Redline's 5W50 oil, and a couple responses saying it's not recommended for vehicles with catalytic converters due to some of the additives (though nobody mentioned which additives, and I didn't see any additive info on Redline's site, so I'm not sure where they got this info)
Redline Product Data

My car has test pipes (primary cat delete) and I will probably end up deleting the secondary cats this winter, so I'm not concerned with cats - just want the best oil for the engine/climate. I

I live in North-eastern Ohio, and won't be driving the car in winter, but early spring and late fall still see temps in the 30s for a while. In the summer, 75-85° and the vast majority of the time we won't see anything over 90° ambient.

I do hope to get in a few track days and was a little concerned about the 0W40 on the track being much thinner at higher temp. i.e. The kinematic viscosity ratings 100°C =22.2 for the TWS, 17.5 for the 5W50, and down to 13.5 for the 0W40. I'm not sure how dramatic this change is in real life, so this might not be an issue. I'm just looking for someone with more expertise on the subject to chime in and get some other's thoughts and opinions.

[Killerfish2012]

Yes, I was the one who brought this idea up early in the other thread. There are some draw backs to 5W50 that made me go with 0W40 instead.

-It should be ok for cold starts, but since I drive my M in the winter, starting below 0F would most likely see some initial metal on metal grinding before start up.

-The oil is NOT BMW LL01 approved.

-The oil is 2x the price of M1 0W40 with much more limited availability. Only NAPA carries it in my area.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by cbrf23

I do hope to get in a few track days and was a little concerned about the 0W40 on the track being much thinner at higher temp. i.e. The kinematic viscosity ratings 100°C =22.2 for the TWS, 17.5 for the 5W50, and down to 13.5 for the 0W40. I'm not sure how dramatic this change is in real life, so this might not be an issue. I'm just looking for someone with more expertise on the subject to chime in and get some other's thoughts and opinions.

The concern with these thick oils, is how well the oil flows between the tight spaces of the engine, particularly the bearings. Oil cools the metal, and protects against metal on metal grinding. The difference between the flow capabilities of 0W40, and 5W50 is huge.

[cbrf23]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

The concern with these thick oils, is how well the oil flows between the tight spaces of the engine, particularly the bearings. Oil cools the metal, and protects against metal on metal grinding. The difference between the flow capabilities of 0W40, and 5W50 is huge.

Killerfish, the difference between 0W40 and 10W60 is even greater! I guess my concern is with the adequacy of the 0W40 for track duty.

Also, interestingly enough, the 5W50 has a lower MRV rating - which I've read (but could be wrong) that when interpreting MRV ratings, the lower the better. It is my understanding that this score relates to the pumpability of the oil at low temperature (i.e. -35°C is stated on the Mobil 1 data sheets), which would indicate the 5W50 is actually more pumpable at lower temperature.


My main concern with the 0W40 is the HTHS viscosity rating being soooo much lower than the 5W50 and TWS 10W60. The HTHS rating of the 5W50 is much better (nearly 20% greater) than the 0W40. Castrol doesn't list this spec on their site (that I could find) but I read in this thread that the TWS is around 4.5.

I'm not an oil expert, but it is my understanding that generally speaking, a higher HTHS rating equates to better protection at higher temperatures, and this would be my primary concern with the 0W40.

If anyone more knowledgeable about interpreting oil data sheets has more input, I would love to hear some thoughts on what the MRV and HTHS really mean in practical application. (not just on paper)

[SenorFunkyPants]

For info: the current Castrol oil Edge pro 10W60 has a HTHS of 5.2.

[cbrf23]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

For info: the current Castrol oil Edge pro 10W60 has a HTHS of 5.2.

Wow - that's quite a bit higher than either of the Mobil 1 offerings. But, is that the out of the bottle HTHS rating? Because I've read that the TWS shears really quickly to basically a 50 weight oil, with an HTHS around 4.5. (by really quickly, I mean less than 2000 miles, and have read some reports of it being right on the edge of a 50 weight within 50 miles!)

Also, can I ask where you found that? I was looking on Castrol's US and Canadian websites and couldn't find it. (actually I couldn't find anything on the Canadian site)

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by cbrf23

Killerfish, the difference between 0W40 and 10W60 is even greater! I guess my concern is with the adequacy of the 0W40 for track duty.

It's fine, since it's oem fill for the GTR, and porsche GT2. It's all about oil drain intervals. 10W60 was spec'd by BMW mostly due to their intentions to run 15K mile oil changes.

Originally Posted by cbrf23

Also, interestingly enough, the 5W50 has a lower MRV rating - which I've read (but could be wrong) that when interpreting MRV ratings, the lower the better. It is my understanding that this score relates to the pumpability of the oil at low temperature (i.e. -35°C is stated on the Mobil 1 data sheets), which would indicate the 5W50 is actually more pumpable at lower temperature.

Absolutely impossible: http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/

Originally Posted by cbrf23

My main concern with the 0W40 is the HTHS viscosity rating being soooo much lower than the 5W50 and TWS 10W60. The HTHS rating of the 5W50 is much better (nearly 20% greater) than the 0W40. Castrol doesn't list this spec on their site (that I could find) but I read in this thread that the TWS is around 4.5.

I'm not an oil expert, but it is my understanding that generally speaking, a higher HTHS rating equates to better protection at higher temperatures, and this would be my primary concern with the 0W40.

If anyone more knowledgeable about interpreting oil data sheets has more input, I would love to hear some thoughts on what the MRV and HTHS really mean in practical application. (not just on paper)

Again, it's all about flow. Our engine has problems with the bearings. The bearings have very tight tolerances. That thick oil isn't going to be flowing into those tight spaces very well.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by cbrf23

Wow - that's quite a bit higher than either of the Mobil 1 offerings. But, is that the out of the bottle HTHS rating? Because I've read that the TWS shears really quickly to basically a 50 weight oil, with an HTHS around 4.5. (by really quickly, I mean less than 2000 miles, and have read some reports of it being right on the edge of a 50 weight within 50 miles!)

Also, can I ask where you found that? I was looking on Castrol's US and Canadian websites and couldn't find it. (actually I couldn't find anything on the Canadian site)

I've talked to Castrol Advanced Technical Support quite a few times over the last 15 years...and one of the lead guys there gave me the HTHS number a month or so ago.
On shear; my last Blackstone gave a cSt of 19.8 after 14000 miles and 1 qrt topup which equates to ~ a 55 weigh oil...but taking a large selection of 10W60 UOAs they average out at ~52 weight at the time of oil change.
I've also seen a Blackstone report on the 10W60 with very low miles and it was around the high 18s cSt which does indicate a very fast shear down to a 53/4 weight oil, but then stays around that number for large mileages.

This from: http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html if it helps.
All virgin oil numbers, but you can put any numbers you like into the calculator and see how they compare.

[cbrf23]

@SenorFunkyPants
Great info - thank you!

@Killerfish2012
I did take another look at the data sheets. The MRV rating for the 0W40 was at a 5° lower temperature than the 5W50.

Just saying "it's fine" because another car with a completely different engine uss it is not an answer I would put any stock in. LOL. The design of the engine is completely different including layout and size of the oil gallies, clearances, valve train design, etc. without even getting into comparing a 7k RPM TT V6 to an 8.5k RPM NA V8.

I realize there have been a few vehicles with bearing failure issues and that is what has driven most people to switch to a thinner oil, but the main/rod bearings are only part of the equation. Too thin of an oil can result in valvetrain lash and other top end problems at higher temps, as well as oil pressure issues which can result in oil starvation. Again, I'm more concerned with track time on this particular oil, as we can probably all agree that 0W40 is a better oil if you daily drive the car and never plan to run it on the track. I want to drive it on the street and on the track.


This whole conversation is getting a bit off topic. I never intended to debate the use of 0W40 - there is another (very long) thread for that. I really am just interested in knowing people's thoughts on the 5W50 and why it doesn't seem to be a popular a choice, as on paper it looks like a very good alternative to the TWS.

*Full disclosure, I am and plan to continue to use the TWS 10W60 for now and the immediate future. I"m just curious about other options.
Right now my plan is simply to install an oil pressure gauge and monitor the oil health through oil pressure/temp as well as oil analysis at each change.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by cbrf23

@Killerfish2012
I did take another look at the data sheets. The MRV rating for the 0W40 was at a 5° lower temperature than the 5W50.

You seem to be honing in on specific test results in order to draw conclusions about oil grade. Oil grade is determined by a series of tests under SAE J300. Several tests determine whether or not an oil is 5W50 or 10W60, not one singular test like kinematic viscosity, MRV, or, HTHS rating. Asking people for advice based solely on extrapolating meaning from one type of test or another, is not a very good way of doing things.

Originally Posted by cbrf23

Just saying "it's fine" because another car with a completely different engine uss it is not an answer I would put any stock in. LOL. The design of the engine is completely different including layout and size of the oil gallies, clearances, valve train design, etc. without even getting into comparing a 7k RPM TT V6 to an 8.5k RPM NA V8

It's not just cross comparing engines. It's also looking at used oil analysis form both their cars, and ours, which shows that 0W40 holds it's grade, up to 8,000 miles. From their used oil analysis and ours, we see that up until 5-6K miles, even with track use, the wear metals are similar, and even less than 10W60. Which is why these other manufacturers that are specifying M1 0W40 in their track ready 9K rpm engines, have 5K mile oil change intervals.

Originally Posted by cbrf23

This whole conversation is getting a bit off topic. I never intended to debate the use of 0W40 - there is another (very long) thread for that. I really am just interested in knowing people's thoughts on the 5W50 and why it doesn't seem to be a popular a choice, as on paper it looks like a very good alternative to the TWS.

I answered your question by telling you some reasons why M1 5W50 might not be such a good idea. The most important of which is the fact that the oil is simply not BMW approved. A fact that you seem to want to easily dismiss. If BMW testing is not something that means anything to you, then why buy a Mobil oil? Redline, Motul, and even Castrol make that grade.

Originally Posted by cbrf23

*Full disclosure, I am and plan to continue to use the TWS 10W60 for now and the immediate future. I"m just curious about other options.
.Right now my plan is simply to install an oil pressure gauge and monitor the oil health through oil pressure/temp as well as oil analysis at each change

You can also monitor oil health through your vehicles oil condition sensor. I wouldn't drive this vehicle with a 10W oil in 30 degree weather, based on what I've just experienced, but to each his own.

[FRFNUGN]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

You can also monitor oil health through your vehicles oil condition sensor. I wouldn't drive this vehicle with a 10W oil in 30 degree weather, based on what I've just experienced, but to each his own.

And what exactly does the oil condition sensor tell you that's relevant to oil health?

FWIW, I drove every day this past winter with 10W-60 (in Iowa, plenty of cold and snow), and my oil analysis in March showed no change in performance over the previous August analysis (also 10W-60). There were many days of sub-0°F where my car sat in the parking lot outside for 10 hours, even a few -20°F days. Not that I think it's an excellent idea to run 10W-60 in the winter, but especially at 30° I doubt there would be any new problems.

[FRFNUGN]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I've talked to Castrol Advanced Technical Support quite a few times over the last 15 years...and one of the lead guys there gave me the HTHS number a month or so ago.
On shear; my last Blackstone gave a cSt of 19.8 after 14000 miles and 1 qrt topup which equates to ~ a 55 weigh oil...but taking a large selection of 10W60 UOAs they average out at ~52 weight at the time of oil change.
I've also seen a Blackstone report on the 10W60 with very low miles and it was around the high 18s cSt which does indicate a very fast shear down to a 53/4 weight oil, but then stays around that number for large mileages.

This from: http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html if it helps.
All virgin oil numbers, but you can put any numbers you like into the calculator and see how they compare.

Genuinely curious how you came up with the SAE-cSt conversion. If I use this chart (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...&Number=634236) which references the allowable ranges for cSt compared to SAE number, and fit a curve to the data (or even just look at the chart), I come up with ~51.2 SAE for 19.8 cSt, and that my UOA show somewhere around 45-47 SAE for 9,000 mile 10W-60.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by FRFNUGN

Genuinely curious how you came up with the SAE-cSt conversion. If I use this chart (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...&Number=634236) which references the allowable ranges for cSt compared to SAE number, and fit a curve to the data (or even just look at the chart), I come up with ~51.2 SAE for 19.8 cSt, and that my UOA show somewhere around 45-47 SAE for 9,000 mile 10W-60.

I was using this: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/
I don't know why it doesn't agree with your chart (or I've misread it).
Its an interesting point you make about low temp usage...again the man at Castrol, when I questioned if the 10W60 would flow poorly in cold temps, was quite surprised and said it wouldn't be a problem for UK users as the oil is good down to -21C.
I looked around to try and find some images of bearings that had accelerated wear due to poor (cold) oil flow to see what the pattern might look like but was unsuccessful. I suspect though that they wouldn't look like the typical wear pattern we are used to seeing in S65 rod bearings.

[cbrf23]

Originally Posted by FRFNUGN

Genuinely curious how you came up with the SAE-cSt conversion. If I use this chart (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...&Number=634236) which references the allowable ranges for cSt compared to SAE number, and fit a curve to the data (or even just look at the chart), I come up with ~51.2 SAE for 19.8 cSt, and that my UOA show somewhere around 45-47 SAE for 9,000 mile 10W-60.

From what I've gathered on the Bobistheoilguy forums, the 10W60 shears to about a 50 weight as well - which is what made me think of the 5W50.

@Killerfish2012
I did not mean to say any one rating told the whole story about the oil - I was simply making a point since up until this last post, you have simply stated your opinions without providing any argument behind them. I appreciate the last post in that you have provided some of that information.

I have looked at most of the 10W40 oil analyses on this site (I have not on any GT-R forums) but an oil analysis again is only part of the whole story. On top of that, I really haven't found any posts of oil analysis that tell me the conditions in which the car was used (i.e. what track, how many laps, sustained oil temp, etc) which would be needed to make the analysis valuable in evaluating the oil's suitability to the task.

Driving on the track means different things to different drivers. One can take a car out to the track, and never see temps above 210° running one or two laps then waiting and running another one or two laps. Another could go to the same track to the track in the same vehicle, and run 10 consecutive laps and be hitting near 300°. In the first scenario, the oil is not getting hot enough to evaluate its suitability for the second scenario. For example, with 4 hours sustained driving at speeds between 95-110 mph the temp hovers the whole time just below the 210 mark. I would not consider this track duty, but is more than some cars will ever see on a track.

I haven't seen anything other than anecdotal evidence - i.e. nothing showing temp/oil pressure on the track or anything like that - to really be comfortable running anything other than the BMW 10W60 that is recommended.

As far as I'm aware, the Mobil 1 0W40 is not approved for use in this vehicle either, so I'm not sure why you were saying that about the 5W50 not being recommended.

I don't plan to use anything other than the recommended 10W60 in my car. I'm just really curious why everyone jumped on board the 0W40 bandwagon and nobody has tried the 5W50.

If I was going to run something other than the recommended oil, it seems like a better choice.

And as far as brands, I was just comparing the Mobil 1 products as an example.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by cbrf23

As far as I'm aware, the Mobil 1 0W40 is not approved for use in this vehicle either, so I'm not sure why you were saying that about the 5W50 not being recommended.

Mobil 1 0W40 is BMW LL01 approved, whereas the 5W50 does not have any BMW approvals. It's been some time but I've looked at the BMW testing documents that go into evaluating an oil for approval, and a lot of it focused on sludge build up, as well as corrosion inhibition. It's quite extensive testing. Someone posted it online, and it's been a while since those oil debates so I'll see if I can find it.

Originally Posted by cbrf23

I don't plan to use anything other than the recommended 10W60 in my car. I'm just really curious why everyone jumped on board the 0W40 bandwagon and nobody has tried the 5W50.

M1 0W40 became popular on the forums when seveal people running 10W60 did numerous oil analysis showing lead levels between 25-50. After switching to M1 0W40 those same exact cars showed lead levels of 5 and below. Also if you read the early threads on bearing wear, the aftermarket bearing manufactures pointed to oil weight as a big reason why they think this was occurring. Going so far as to state that 5W40 wouldn't see these same wear patterns.

Originally Posted by cbrf23

If I was going to run something other than the recommended oil, it seems like a better choice. And as far as brands, I was just comparing the Mobil 1 products as an example.

I would actually run this oil myself, but need something to help me start a car parked overnight in sub 0F temperatures, and from experience a 5W just doesn't cut it during start up.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by FRFNUGN

And what exactly does the oil condition sensor tell you that's relevant to oil health?

FWIW, I drove every day this past winter with 10W-60 (in Iowa, plenty of cold and snow), and my oil analysis in March showed no change in performance over the previous August analysis (also 10W-60). There were many days of sub-0°F where my car sat in the parking lot outside for 10 hours, even a few -20°F days. Not that I think it's an excellent idea to run 10W-60 in the winter, but especially at 30° I doubt there would be any new problems.

SMH bro, SMH. If your car pumped 10W60 in -F temps, then good for you. However, guys on here have measured the oil pressure readings at those temps with this 10W60, and lets just say they drained that sucker out immediately after.

[SenorFunkyPants]

However did cars last when most everyone ran 20W50 oil all year round back in the day?

[cbrf23]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

It's been some time but I've looked at the BMW testing documents that go into evaluating an oil for approval, and a lot of it focused on sludge build up, as well as corrosion inhibition. It's quite extensive testing. Someone posted it online, and it's been a while since those oil debates so I'll see if I can find it.

I would love to see that if you can find it. Just curious to know what kind of testing they do.

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

M1 0W40 became popular on the forums when seveal people running 10W60 did numerous oil analysis showing lead levels between 25-50. After switching to M1 0W40 those same exact cars showed lead levels of 5 and below. Also if you read the early threads on bearing wear, the aftermarket bearing manufactures pointed to oil weight as a big reason why they think this was occurring. Going so far as to state that 5W40 wouldn't see these same wear patterns.

I'll have to read more into that thread. I found some good info in there, but it's all buried under 31 pages of mostly non-value added comments. Not to criticize, that's just how forums work.

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

However did cars last when most everyone ran 20W50 oil all year round back in the day?

That is a good point, though I do think the advancement in VI modifiers has allowed much greater changes in engine oiling systems' design for modern cars, requiring better cold flow in more modern vehicles. Still - I haven't seen anything other than anecdotal evidence that the bearing failures seen in these motors was due to the heavy weight oil.

There is someone over on the Bobistheoilguy forum (Doug Hillary) who was actually involved in the development of the original formulation that became the TWS 10W60 - kind of interesting to hear his thoughts on this oil. I can't find the post right now, but I believe he says it was originally called something like Castrol "R" and was originally rated as 10w-50 or something like that. (not positive off hand) Anyways, he does claim the current ester TWS 10W60 has some very unique properties in low temperature flow for it's viscosity rating.

There was a good post over there where they were discussing how the TWS 10W60 shears to essentially a 50 weight oil very quickly, then stabilizes and remains that weight for the rest of the service life of the oil. I wonder if there is a similar effect on the cold rating (i.e. does the 10W become 5W or 0W?)

[SenorFunkyPants]

I've read a few posts spread over the internet written by people involved with BMW and/or Castrol 10W60 (including the one by Doug Hilary you mentioned) and they all hold the oil in very high regard. I have no doubt that Mobil 1 0W40 is a great oil when used as recommended (I've used it myself in Porsches), but I remain unconvinced that it is a better oil for the S65 (in fact I suspect the contrary), at least for for the majority of users who live in warm climates. However there may well be a good case for using M1 as a winter oil for harsh climates.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I've read a few posts spread over the internet written by people involved with BMW and/or Castrol 10W60 (including the one by Doug Hilary you mentioned) and they all hold the oil in very high regard. I have no doubt that Mobil 1 0W40 is a great oil when used as recommended (I've used it myself in Porsches), but I remain unconvinced that it is a better oil for the S65 (in fact I suspect the contrary), at least for for the majority of users who live in warm climates. However there may well be a good case for using M1 as a winter oil for harsh climates.

I am seriously considering swapping to Liqui Moly 10w60 GT1. Any thoughts on that. It will be interesting to see what BMW recommends for the M cars now given that it is about to end the contractual agreement with Castrol.

Interesting fill ... the oil cap says BMW recommends Castrol and the dealer fills it with Shell.

By the way, if you haven't seen this, it's my first Blackstone oil analysis.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=431

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

I am seriously considering swapping to Liqui Moly 10w60 GT1. Any thoughts on that. It will be interesting to see what BMW recommends for the M cars now given that it is about to end the contractual agreement with Castrol.

Interesting fill ... the oil cap says BMW recommends Castrol and the dealer fills it with Shell.

By the way, if you haven't seen this, it's my first Blackstone oil analysis.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=431

I don't get why everyone here is gonna be surprised or wondering what the dealer will recommend now that the Castrol deal is gone.

This is simple business, that's all. BMW now has an agreement to recommend another brand. For the M cars (older motors now) they will still recommend a 10w60 but now it will not be Castrol. As far as the Lubro Moly, I know of one very good shop that uses it and recommends it but my brother was also just in a shop and saw an e9x that the owner used Lubro Moly in and was making noise. Swapped to Castrol and all went away, so who knows.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

I am seriously considering swapping to Liqui Moly 10w60 GT1. Any thoughts on that. It will be interesting to see what BMW recommends for the M cars now given that it is about to end the contractual agreement with Castrol.

I've never used liquid moly or know much about it...Its probably a fine oil.
I know it seems like I'm some sort of massive Castrol fan but I'm not, I just feel that if people are going to recommend other M3 owners to move away from the OEM oil weight they should have a compelling case to support it.
It will really stir things up if BMW suggest a different oil weight for the S65 when the new Shell contract starts!!...I have a feeling that they will stick with the Castrol 10W60 though.
Nice Blackstone report BTW.