Another biased comparison between the M3/M4 and ATS-V...or is it?

[BoosTonian]

There has been much talk and comparison between the F8x M cars and the Cadillac ATS-V. Most said that this was a pointless review and the new twin sisters from M would take the crown as they always have. Then the reviews came out, and the heads started spinning. The ATS-V was testing to be on par and actually outperform the M3, but how was this so? M has been around since the start of Motorsport and has such a refined ideology. Could an American company with a division that is new to the game create a car that could compete with the legendary M3 (and new M4)? It seems so..

Curiosity got to me, and today I decided to visit a Cadillac dealership to see what the hype was all about and if this new Caddy truly is an M competitor. Upon arriving at the dealership, I noticed the car right away (even though it was parked in a corner). Sharp lines and aggressive bodywork give it away. I walked inside the dealership, did my thing with the salesperson and then came the time to show me the car.

Walking up to the car I started noticing the body-lines more and more and even though they're aggressive, they all blend into each other. The White Pearl Tri-Coat looked great on this car as well (not milky like Mineral White in my opinion).

First thing's first, I sat in the car. And up popped the first difference. The seats. This ATS-V had the Recaro seats in it and the difference from the M seats is actually noticeable. The Caddy has more padding on the bottom middle and back middle parts of the seat. Felt comfier to sit on and I feel as though it might actually be more comfortable for longer rides. The seat bolsters hug you just like on the M so no difference there. But where the M seats are firm all around, the Caddy had firm seats along with a higher comfort level in the right places.

Next I turned on the car, in which it let out a very refined exhaust not. No rasp, no popping, no "weed-wacker" sound as some have put it (don't know how else to describe it). Upon starting, you knew there was something different about this car from a normal Cadillac. Although it sounded good on startup, when I revved it (to about 2/2.5k rpm) it didn't have the same snarl that the F8x cars have (even though its down low). After the mini sound test came the next stark difference between the F8x and ATS-V. It took much less effort and much less actual turning of the steering wheel to fully lock the wheels in either direction. Equivalent to a BMW with Active Steering, but still the Caddy took less effort to turn.

Now for the fun part. Driving. I put the (auto) tranny in manual mode and took off. For one, the Caddy is smoother due to having a normal transmission and not a DCT, so no bouncing or hesitation. It just shifted up and down like an every day auto. Also, one thing I noticed was that the car didn't seem as peppy as the M in that I felt like more power was available from 1k rpm than there was in the ATS-V. So overall a smoother start-up drive due to these two things.

But make no mistake. This car woke right up as soon as I punched it. No hesitation, no hiccup, nothing. Straight, raw power. And boy was it smooth. The car pulled like a freight train and this is coming from a fbo F80 owner. Overall, the car felt incredible power-wise, and the engine was complimented by a beautiful exhaust note out the back. Slight popping but totally refined and slightly exotic. Transmission shifting up and down extremely fast and whenever I prompted it too. The only issue I saw was there wasn't as much power down in the 1-2.5k RPM range as there is on the F8x (some reviews have said there is turbo lag which I can confirm). Suspension wise the car was magnificent, taking turns was incredibly easy with (as reviews have said) wonderful turn-in and adjustment of weight going around corners. The magnetic ride control was fantastic and doing its job providing a hard ride when I wanted but then a tame ride when casually driving. One thing to note though, the F8x feels more rigid and solid feeling. Braking was superb and comparable to carbon ceramics that I have tested out...no fad whatsoever and really gripped hard when I hit the brakes (more so than the F8x standard steel brakes).

Features-wise, the cars are comparable and shouldn't be a factor if choosing between the two cars. I do feel as though the gauges on the ATS-V are a little dated compared to the F8x, and the CUE system (although simple and easy to use) seems to be a little on the slower side and dated a bit as well. The F8x definitely has the upper-hand when it comes to its iDrive and the entire interface.

One thing I have always defended and took pride in is the engineering put behind the M cars. In my opinion nothing in each M cars' class competes with them in terms of providing an overall package. But then came the ATS-V, and trust me...NEVER in a million years would I have thought that I would say this. But Cadillac has indefinitely created a competitor to the M3. A solid competitor, and one (that I choke while saying) is better in some areas than the M3. Cadillac has truly built a gem of a car and for anyone debating on which to purchase, I wish you goodluck...I purchased my M3 before the ATS-V was available :P

But in all seriousness, what you have is this. On one hand a car that is straight, raw performance all the time...and one that is luxury driven but when prompted will give you the raw performance you are looking for. The M can be tame, but not nearly as tame as the ATS-V. For me, I prefer my M3. Not because it's any better or worse, but because I like the raw performance feeling all the time (as well as the newer and better interfaces). Take this review as you will, just some incite on a M enthusiast's take on the newest rival to our beloved car.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by MThree_driver

NEVER in a million years would I have thought that I would say this. But Cadillac has indefinitely created a competitor to the M3.

It may not be forever

[BoosTonian]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

It may not be forever

This is true, although I would hope that they would be able to continue to progress with the ATS-V and make it more and more refined with each version. I would hate to see this car turn into just another car in the segment (like the RC-F), since Cadillac seems like they have put so much work and effort into it!

[Xtabi]

Great write-up! I'll have to take one for at some point.

BTW I believe Sakhir was referring to your use of the term 'indefinitely'. That silly billy! ?

[ASAP]

Just an FYI... one of the main reasons why many choose the M car over anything else is the appreciation of the styling, finish and brand image.... Some may call that fanboying others would call it preference... the ATS-V has as of now only tied the M4 around Laguna Seca not beat it, and thats with an extra 40hp... also, why would anyone say GM can't build a great sports car? They build the Z06, although I don't think they can put together an overall package like BMW can in the M3, as reviews so far have shown... for example, the sound of this V6 motor and overall feel has not been too praised and that interior is beyond disgusting, but hey, perhaps thats preference as well...

[S4Dude]

[Bowser330]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Just an FYI... one of the main reasons why many choose the M car over anything else is the appreciation of the styling, finish and brand image.... Some may call that fanboying others would call it preference... the ATS-V has as of now only tied the M4 around Laguna Seca not beat it, and thats with an extra 40hp... also, why would anyone say GM can't build a great sports car? They build the Z06, although I don't think they can put together an overall package like BMW can in the M3, as reviews so far have shown... for example, the sound of this V6 motor and overall feel has not been too praised and that interior is beyond disgusting, but hey, perhaps thats preference as well...

Isn't the horsepower nearly the same?The S55 has repeatedly dynoed on a dynojet at 42Xwhp and the new era ats-v dynoed 431whp on a dynojet. Different dynos different conditions I know but id say they are closer than ppl think.

[Liberation]

Damn...your area dealer has them already?

I stopped by my local dealer last week and was told either January or February.

[Fahrvergnügen]

Thanks for the write-up and it's nice to hear a perspective from an M3 owner on this. From a pure performance (numbers) perspective, the margin of difference among automakers' luxury sedans/coupes is closing quite steadily and, for what it is worth, if you are not looking for a 'luxury' vehicle per se, you can get the same or better performance from a less expensive car (corvette/gt350).

With that said, automakers have to compete on different fronts such as interior appointments, standard features, options available, exterior design, lucrative leasing programs, and price to get customers to buy their cars. This is where I think Cadillac needed to have improved. They are already pretty much there on performance in their segment but it's most of the other 'fronts' that they need to improve in order to sell cars.

[Powerslide]

Yes - thanks for the excellent write up OP - sounds like it's pretty much the equal of the M3 and C63S - nice that this segment has such excellent choices - it truly has come down to just subjective preference now...

[BoosTonian]

Originally Posted by Liberation

Damn...your area dealer has them already?

I stopped by my local dealer last week and was told either January or February.

Ya, this dealer had 2 (sedan and coupe) and then another one near me has a sedan, so they're out there!

Originally Posted by Powerslide

Yes - thanks for the excellent write up OP - sounds like it's pretty much the equal of the M3 and C63S - nice that this segment has such excellent choices - it truly has come down to just subjective preference now...

It really is getting closer and closer to which brand do you prefer vs. which has the better performing car. Only the enthusiast and people who know exactly what to look for will be able to pick out the differences between them, but a normal person that takes them for a normal test drive will just choose one over the other for either price or a preference on look/style.

Originally Posted by ChicagoM4

Thanks for the write-up and it's nice to hear a perspective from an M3 owner on this. From a pure performance (numbers) perspective, the margin of difference among automakers' luxury sedans/coupes is closing quite steadily and, for what it is worth, if you are not looking for a 'luxury' vehicle per se, you can get the same or better performance from a less expensive car (corvette/gt350).

With that said, automakers have to compete on different fronts such as interior appointments, standard features, options available, exterior design, lucrative leasing programs, and price to get customers to buy their cars. This is where I think Cadillac needed to have improved. They are already pretty much there on performance in their segment but it's most of the other 'fronts' that they need to improve in order to sell cars.

Definitely agree with you that from a performance standpoint the different manufacturers are getting closer and closer. Like I said above, I really think its going to be the enthusiasts or those who know exactly what to look for will be able to pick out the differences whereas a normal person will just go for what is the best deal and which has the better styling/look to it.

I believe Cadillac still has a good way to go when it comes to the interfaces within the car, one thing I forgot to state is the rearview cam is GOD AWFUL, absolutely horrendous and to the point where you cannot really pick out things because of how blurred and low res. it is.

[dkhm3]

nice review, I always thought this was the car to compete closely to the m3/m4 vs the c63's.

Definitely would consider this car, but too bad they could not improve the gauges to the cts-v.

couple of other issues is for me personally is the concern on depreciation on these cars. I really have not had any experience with cadillacs, but the m3 cost of ownership is low compared to other cars in its category. Since I buy my cars and keep them for 6 years or so, it matters to me a great deal.

last thing is the looks, I just am not enamored with the way cadillacs look.

I think this car will have a problem selling- the ats in general has had great reviews, but the actual sales numbers are poor relative to its competition. Cadillac needs to draw customers from other lux brands, as well as upsell the chevy/ford owners looking to step up. I think the secondary market for these cars will suffer as well.

Lastly, with the new camaro ss coming out with a proper v8 and performance numbers that scream value compared to the ats-v, I wonder if GM is going to have to cut the price of this car to sell it. It does not have the following of the m3/m4 or C63.

[dkhm3]

one more thing- I think the competition is scaring bmw, the new GTS is just in another league in terms of ring times. 7:28 is absurd, if this is an indicator of the next level of performance for BMW's, I need to start saving up for the next gen.

[Bowser330]

Great review thank you.

They definitely stepped up the game, pretty impressive for GM.

But im thinking their new higher pricing strategy may not pay off and they will be offering solid discounts once the sales numbers don't materialize.

Also if I were a company that just launched a great car that competes with BMW and MBZ models I would be offering huge discounts to switch.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

one more thing- I think the competition is scaring bmw, the new GTS is just in another league in terms of ring times. 7:28 is absurd, if this is an indicator of the next level of performance for BMW's, I need to start saving up for the next gen.

For BMW it is for others it not.

[Bad Robot]

Nice work, OP. I got the sense that you didn't enter the comparo with BMW bias, so that made the review better.

I think it's great that GM has picked up the world challenge in sporty cars for Cadillac and Corvette. It's good for the breed. Let the competition be fierce. We are the benefactors.

If BMW needs to respond by building a better M car, it will, as will other high-end manufacturers such as Audi, M-B, Lexus and Trabant. OK, maybe not Trabant.

[F83]

Originally Posted by MThree_driver

Ya, this dealer had 2 (sedan and coupe) and then another one near me has a sedan, so they're out there!



It really is getting closer and closer to which brand do you prefer vs. which has the better performing car. Only the enthusiast and people who know exactly what to look for will be able to pick out the differences between them

This. Like many here, if the CTS-V had a slightly better 0-60 or Quarter mile or whatever, I would still pick the BWM M. Performance matters for sure but there are so many reasons I've made the choice I made - performance is but one of those reasons.

[ASAP]

I can assure people of one thing... that if I was choosing a car w a price tange of up to 100k qnd was focused on performance as a top priority... i would choose none of the junk that we talk about in this class... there is a certain all out American car that puts everything to shame... 650hp/650tq... having driven one, its a totally different level... if I want the whole pckage, I am staying w bmw m.

[Damasconian]

Good write up. Hard to decide who makes a better white, BMW or Cadillac. I lean towards Cadillac but then I see a Mineral White BMW and get confused again.

These cars are surely competitors to the M cars. And yet they will still sell a fraction of the numbers that BMW & Mercedes do in the same category. Buzz is limited even with the good reviews. And the pictures you posted are a big reason why - that just doesn't look like a "special" car to me. The Coupe does, especially in Black. But that sedan is boring, IMO.

[///Mpossible]

Originally Posted by Damasconian

Good write up. Hard to decide who makes a better white, BMW or Cadillac. I lean towards Cadillac but then I see a Mineral White BMW and get confused again.

These cars are surely competitors to the M cars. And yet they will still sell a fraction of the numbers that BMW & Mercedes do in the same category. Buzz is limited even with the good reviews. And the pictures you posted are a big reason why - that just doesn't look like a "special" car to me. The Coupe does, especially in Black. But that sedan is boring, IMO.

My only complain about the exterior look of the ATS-V are is the wheels, they should have been 19s in a sportier design. Not sure why Caddy went with 18s when everyone esle has 19s or 20s.

[Who's on first]

Originally Posted by MThree_driver

There has been much talk and comparison between the F8x M cars and the Cadillac ATS-V. Most said that this was a pointless review and the new twin sisters from M would take the crown as they always have. Then the reviews came out, and the heads started spinning. The ATS-V was testing to be on par and actually outperform the M3, but how was this so? M has been around since the start of Motorsport and has such a refined ideology. Could an American company with a division that is new to the game create a car that could compete with the legendary M3 (and new M4)? It seems so..

Curiosity got to me, and today I decided to visit a Cadillac dealership to see what the hype was all about and if this new Caddy truly is an M competitor. Upon arriving at the dealership, I noticed the car right away (even though it was parked in a corner). Sharp lines and aggressive bodywork give it away. I walked inside the dealership, did my thing with the salesperson and then came the time to show me the car.

Walking up to the car I started noticing the body-lines more and more and even though they're aggressive, they all blend into each other. The White Pearl Tri-Coat looked great on this car as well (not milky like Mineral White in my opinion).

First thing's first, I sat in the car. And up popped the first difference. The seats. This ATS-V had the Recaro seats in it and the difference from the M seats is actually noticeable. The Caddy has more padding on the bottom middle and back middle parts of the seat. Felt comfier to sit on and I feel as though it might actually be more comfortable for longer rides. The seat bolsters hug you just like on the M so no difference there. But where the M seats are firm all around, the Caddy had firm seats along with a higher comfort level in the right places.

Next I turned on the car, in which it let out a very refined exhaust not. No rasp, no popping, no "weed-wacker" sound as some have put it (don't know how else to describe it). Upon starting, you knew there was something different about this car from a normal Cadillac. Although it sounded good on startup, when I revved it (to about 2/2.5k rpm) it didn't have the same snarl that the F8x cars have (even though its down low). After the mini sound test came the next stark difference between the F8x and ATS-V. It took much less effort and much less actual turning of the steering wheel to fully lock the wheels in either direction. Equivalent to a BMW with Active Steering, but still the Caddy took less effort to turn.

Now for the fun part. Driving. I put the (auto) tranny in manual mode and took off. For one, the Caddy is smoother due to having a normal transmission and not a DCT, so no bouncing or hesitation. It just shifted up and down like an every day auto. Also, one thing I noticed was that the car didn't seem as peppy as the M in that I felt like more power was available from 1k rpm than there was in the ATS-V. So overall a smoother start-up drive due to these two things.

But make no mistake. This car woke right up as soon as I punched it. No hesitation, no hiccup, nothing. Straight, raw power. And boy was it smooth. The car pulled like a freight train and this is coming from a fbo F80 owner. Overall, the car felt incredible power-wise, and the engine was complimented by a beautiful exhaust note out the back. Slight popping but totally refined and slightly exotic. Transmission shifting up and down extremely fast and whenever I prompted it too. The only issue I saw was there wasn't as much power down in the 1-2.5k RPM range as there is on the F8x (some reviews have said there is turbo lag which I can confirm). Suspension wise the car was magnificent, taking turns was incredibly easy with (as reviews have said) wonderful turn-in and adjustment of weight going around corners. The magnetic ride control was fantastic and doing its job providing a hard ride when I wanted but then a tame ride when casually driving. One thing to note though, the F8x feels more rigid and solid feeling. Braking was superb and comparable to carbon ceramics that I have tested out...no fad whatsoever and really gripped hard when I hit the brakes (more so than the F8x standard steel brakes).

Features-wise, the cars are comparable and shouldn't be a factor if choosing between the two cars. I do feel as though the gauges on the ATS-V are a little dated compared to the F8x, and the CUE system (although simple and easy to use) seems to be a little on the slower side and dated a bit as well. The F8x definitely has the upper-hand when it comes to its iDrive and the entire interface.

One thing I have always defended and took pride in is the engineering put behind the M cars. In my opinion nothing in each M cars' class competes with them in terms of providing an overall package. But then came the ATS-V, and trust me...NEVER in a million years would I have thought that I would say this. But Cadillac has indefinitely created a competitor to the M3. A solid competitor, and one (that I choke while saying) is better in some areas than the M3. Cadillac has truly built a gem of a car and for anyone debating on which to purchase, I wish you goodluck...I purchased my M3 before the ATS-V was available :P

But in all seriousness, what you have is this. On one hand a car that is straight, raw performance all the time...and one that is luxury driven but when prompted will give you the raw performance you are looking for. The M can be tame, but not nearly as tame as the ATS-V. For me, I prefer my M3. Not because it's any better or worse, but because I like the raw performance feeling all the time (as well as the newer and better interfaces). Take this review as you will, just some incite on a M enthusiast's take on the newest rival to our beloved car.

Sticky tires too. Holds its weight upside down.

[swanson]

Originally Posted by ///Mpossible

My only complain about the exterior look of the ATS-V are is the wheels, they should have been 19s in a sportier design. Not sure why Caddy went with 18s when everyone esle has 19s or 20s.

Because they went with the performance option. They tried larger wheels but it hindered performance.