F80/F82 Demand higher vs. E90/E92?

[MFNATIK]

For those of you who have had the pleasure to own both the previous generation M3 sedan/coupe as well as the current generation, was the initial 1st and 2nd year demand quite as high as it seems like it is now for this generation's M3/M4? I don't recall the demand for the E90/E92 being this high but I was in an E60 M5 back then so maybe I wasn't paying as close attention to the M3. Just curious if this generation is on its way to being the best selling/highest demand M3/M4.

[geneatals]

fortunate to own both (leased an e90 m3 in 2011, purchased at lease end in 2014, sold it in 2015 and was lucky to enough to snag an f80 allocation and work a deal that was very close to my target (actual better with oct incenctives) and took delivery at the end of oct, 2015)

i think there is a bit more demand for the f8x models...when I was shopping for my e90 m3 it didn't seem as hard to get an allocation or get a deal as my current f80, and I ordered my e90 m3 when the ZCP droppped and combox came standard...can't speak of production numbers between the two models though as that may play a part in the supply/demand...but it does seem allocations are low for the f8x when reading between the lines of threads

but honestly..with the engine going from NA to FI..I think you have a lot of N54/N55 guys making the jump..not to mention some of the JDM crowd jumping over as well...this is just my speculation though....

[Wah]

I had no trouble getting a good deal on my 2011 M3 coupe or my 2015 M4 (preordered 3 months before they were launched). NJ has so many BMW dealerships competing against each other.... good for the buyer.

[solstice]

The E9X M3 started production July 2007. To say this was tough timing for a luxury niche car is an understatement... Hint, Worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. And it was also a time where oil was getting really pricey and gas guzzlers becoming more and more unpopular. So I would assume the F8X M3/M4 to kill the E9X M3 sales numbers.

[64-bit]

As a buyer, I never had such hard time on finding allocations... Here in New England to get a deal with $1,500 over invoice is almost impossible (Im glad that I did), and when it comes to M3s, it is even harder, not sure if allocations are bigger on M4s.

[Jimjamz]

Originally Posted by geneatals

fortunate to own both (leased an e90 m3 in 2011, purchased at lease end in 2014, sold it in 2015 and was lucky to enough to snag an f80 allocation and work a deal that was very close to my target (actual better with oct incenctives) and took delivery at the end of oct, 2015)

i think there is a bit more demand for the f8x models...when I was shopping for my e90 m3 it didn't seem as hard to get an allocation or get a deal as my current f80, and I ordered my e90 m3 when the ZCP droppped and combox came standard...can't speak of production numbers between the two models though as that may play a part in the supply/demand...but it does seem allocations are low for the f8x when reading between the lines of threads

but honestly..with the engine going from NA to FI..I think you have a lot of N54/N55 guys making the jump..not to mention some of the JDM crowd jumping over as well...this is just my speculation though....

I certainly tried the e92 m3 but was happier with the torque in my then e92 335i. The S55 sealed the deal for me and I didn't even look at the f30 335i this time around.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by MFNATIK

For those of you who have had the pleasure to own both the previous generation M3 sedan/coupe as well as the current generation, was the initial 1st and 2nd year demand quite as high as it seems like it is now for this generation's M3/M4?

Anecdotally - no. But keep in mind that we don't have numbers for the current generation so all we can do is speculate.

Also this is not a properly controlled comparison, since the E9x M3 dropped into the marketplace just as the recession was getting into full swing. This obviously affected demand, and BMW scaled back production of the second model year considerably.

[F83]

Bigger gap between the F30 and the F8X than there was between the E92 and the E90 IMO (meaning the E90 was a much sportier car than the F30). That may explain the increase in M demand this time.

[doberzus]

Originally Posted by geneatals

but honestly..with the engine going from NA to FI..I think you have a lot of N54/N55 guys making the jump..not to mention some of the JDM crowd jumping over as well...this is just my speculation though....

I agree with this, mostly because this was me. Living at altitude(~4500ft) with DA getting up to ~8000ft in the summer and also having owned turbo: STI's(2 of them), a WRX, EVO X, and a FBO N54, the F8x was a no brainier considering I am a huge turbo, BMW fan.

The E9x M's are dogs up here, especially considering all the power is up top. Honestly the E9x M's have never appealed to me, mostly because of no turbo. Yeah we have different priorities up here

Willing to bet my F80 will be on par, if not faster than a C6 Z06 up here.....

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by Wah

I had no trouble getting a good deal on my 2011 M3 coupe or my 2015 M4 (preordered 3 months before they were launched). NJ has so many BMW dealerships competing against each other.... good for the buyer.

NJ is one of the most competitive areas. USAA Car Buying service always shows the lowest price in the NJ area.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by solstice

The E9X M3 started production July 2007. To say this was tough timing for a luxury niche car is an understatement... Hint, Worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.

Yeah, people in know say we were about

.

I've only been through 1 of those, so I'm not an expert, but it didn't seem like a good time to be stocking up on luxury items.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Jimjamz

I certainly tried the e92 m3 but was happier with the torque in my then e92 335i. The S55 sealed the deal for me and I didn't even look at the f30 335i this time around.

I always chuckle when I read statements like this . When you do the math, comparing 6MT vs 6MT, above 2000RPM, the E92 M3 pretty much has more torque at the wheels in any given gear than a 335i.

[MFNATIK]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I always chuckle when I read statements like this . When you do the math, comparing 6MT vs 6MT, above 2000RPM, the E92 M3 pretty much has more torque at the wheels in any given gear than a 335i.

I know you're probably right but when it came to seat of the pants feel, it didn't feel very fast unless you were in the right gear. That was the downside of the S65/S85 engines. If I was caught under 3k rpm it didn't feel like it could pull very hard. Anything above 5k rpms was of course music to my ears.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by MFNATIK

I know you're probably right but when it came to seat of the pants feel, it didn't feel very fast unless you were in the right gear. That was the downside of the S65/S85 engines. If I was caught under 3k rpm it didn't feel like it could pull very hard. Anything above 5k rpms was of course music to my ears.

You are right, it is all in the seat of the pants because the S65 pulled harder as the revs rose; it gave the impression of having less down low. But it does not mean it was weaker compared to an N54/5 at lower revs (it is actually the opposite). The S55 is in another league though .

[Elijaih]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You are right, it is all in the seat of the pants because the S65 pulled harder as the revs rose; it gave the impression of having less down low. But it does not mean it was weaker compared to an N54/5 at lower revs (it is actually the opposite). The S55 is in another league though .

Not to go into an arguement about this, but I just looked up a few E92 M3 dynos and E92 335i dynos, the M3 only had more torque above about 6500 rpm. That is part of why I bought a 335is over an M3. Granted I prefer turbos over high revving engines. I plan on selling my EVO next year for a M4 since the M's went to turbos. I'm looking forward to my order next year and plan on doing my first ED as well. I have had 4 turbo cars with 3 of them being BMW's. So this wasn't the first time I choose a 335i/535i/335is over an E9X M3.

P.S. I would put the dynos in the post, but I'm on my phone. Maybe I'm missing something on the dynos and you're correct?

[geneatals]

lol..is this e9x posts? more NA vs FI discussion? wow

[F83]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I always chuckle when I read statements like this . When you do the math, comparing 6MT vs 6MT, above 2000RPM, the E92 M3 pretty much has more torque at the wheels in any given gear than a 335i.

Is that right?



(Actually, it may well be right. I just wanted to use the meme!)

[Devilzmantis]

You guys forget one thing:

2008 M3 Release = 2008 Market Financial Crash. They were sitting in the lot for years until things picked up.

Fast forward to now and 2015 is probably the easiest to finance/lease a car.

That being said... both cars are fantastic. The V8 is still in great demand. Time will tell if the F8x is better.

[MFNATIK]

Originally Posted by Devilzmantis

You guys forget one thing:

2008 M3 Release = 2008 Market Financial Crash. They were sitting in the lot for years until things picked up.

Fast forward to now and 2015 is probably the easiest to finance/lease a car.

That being said... both cars are fantastic. The V8 is still in great demand. Time will tell if the F8x is better.

I'm very sure the F8X is better in almost every way. The only thing the NA V8 did better is that it sounds better and that is mostly subjective. BMW has never built an M car that wasn't superior to its predecessor. The F8x is lighter, faster, more efficient, roomier, stops faster, has less brake fade, cools better, and hopefully will be more reliable. The last thing is the only thing in my opinion that needs to be proven over time.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Elijaih

Not to go into an arguement about this, but I just looked up a few E92 M3 dynos and E92 335i dynos, the M3 only had more torque above about 6500 rpm. That is part of why I bought a 335is over an M3. Granted I prefer turbos over high revving engines. I plan on selling my EVO next year for a M4 since the M's went to turbos. I'm looking forward to my order next year and plan on doing my first ED as well. I have had 4 turbo cars with 3 of them being BMW's. So this wasn't the first time I choose a 335i/535i/335is over an E9X M3.

P.S. I would put the dynos in the post, but I'm on my phone. Maybe I'm missing something on the dynos and you're correct?

I am talking actual torque at the wheels. Not the fictitious torque number chassis dynos spew out.

To get the actual torque at the wheels, you need to multiply the crank torque number by the gear and final drive ratios and substract drivetrain loss. The E92 M3 is able to beat the 335i because of its much shorter final drive (3.854 vs 3.08), which gives it a 25% torque multiplication advantage.

Comparing the same RPM in a given gear, the M3 beats the 335i. Comparing the same road speed in a given gear, the M3 has even more of an advantage because the S65 needs to spin faster due to the shorter final drive which puts it in a beefier portion of the torque curve.

It's interresting to see how many folks get fooled by misinterpreting the numbers .

[Elijaih]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am talking actual torque at the wheels. Not the fictitious torque number chassis dynos spew out.

To get the actual torque at the wheels, you need to multiply the crank torque number by the gear and final drive ratios and substract drivetrain loss. The E92 M3 is able to beat the 335i because of its much shorter final drive (3.854 vs 3.08), which gives it a 25% torque multiplication advantage.

Comparing the same RPM in a given gear, the M3 beats the 335i. Comparing the same road speed in a given gear, the M3 has even more of an advantage because the S65 needs to spin faster due to the shorter final drive which puts it in a beefier portion of the torque curve.

It interresting to see how many folks get fooled by misinterpreting the numbers .

Thanks makes sense and thank you for the information! Hopefully I'm not fooled by a dyno, but it sounds like I am. I know dyno's are only so accurate and have a partial purpose, as in comparing before and after mods, hopefully it is still good for that. I guess that is assuming that both engines are rated accurately, which I'm not sure the N54 was. Regardless, I have a feeling you have a better understanding about this and I'm not trying to argue, so I will defer to your knowledge.


To focus back on the OP's question, these are a few points of what I have read and why I think the F8X has a higher demand than a E9X. I would expect even more than what I have listed, but I was trying to get a list started, partially in attempts of providing helpful posts and more of them.

• I would expect moving from NA to FI would draw a larger crowd and is probably the biggest reason IMHO. No this isn't a NA vs FI thread, but since that is a major difference I would expect it to be part of the discussion.

• Better MPG would attract more buyers. I know most people who buy an F8X don't care, but some buys do care and the increased MPG at least on paper is noticeable at least.

• The economy around 2008 compared to 2014/2015. This didn't affect me, but it probably did for a lot of buyers.

• Natural progression of buyers moving up. I've been a BMW owner since 2003 and next year is my plan to finally join the M family after wanting to do so for so long.

• As others have said, we don't know the production numbers. There could be higher production numbers, but there could be less as well.

[F83]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am talking actual torque at the wheels. Not the fictitious torque number chassis dynos spew out.

To get the actual torque at the wheels, you need to multiply the crank torque number by the gear and final drive ratios and substract drivetrain loss. The E92 M3 is able to beat the 335i because of its much shorter final drive (3.854 vs 3.08), which gives it a 25% torque multiplication advantage.

Comparing the same RPM in a given gear, the M3 beats the 335i. Comparing the same road speed in a given gear, the M3 has even more of an advantage because the S65 needs to spin faster due to the shorter final drive which puts it in a beefier portion of the torque curve.

It's interresting to see how many folks get fooled by misinterpreting the numbers .

Question not a challenge;

I don't get it. Dynos are measuring at the wheel not at the crankshaft. I mean - the car's wheels are sitting on the dyno wheel are they not? Don't really understand this. Again - not a challenge, interested in learning more here.