Planned obsolescent?

[DuSh]

IMHO market today dictates its own cruel rules and auto manufacturers comply to survive and make profit. In 1980s I remember Mercedes Benz or BMW made cars that lasted 20 years, some are even on the road today. That was quality! A million miles engine was not rare - Mers, BMW or even Volvo had one. Even Toyota's most reliable cars fade in comparison of what German engineering was capable of making

30 years later when technology is more advanced then ever - they can make a million miles car, but they don't. Instead we have modern engines that last 3-4 years without major issues (some still have issues within 1st year tho) and then after warranty is up - it's lottery. And I'm not even talking about ultramodern tech. No. Just basic old school - rod bearings failing on BMW engines as one simple example. Often failing after 20-30k miles. Or valve stem seals failing on barely broken in engines. This are all old school tech and yet materials they use are not up to standard to provide issue free and many years of happy motoring

It seems to me only Japanese and Korean brands are still trying to keep reliability up. It used to be you pay a lot more for German car, but you get a quality machine for many years. Now you pay a lot more and get a 5-7 years out of car if you are lucky to avoid major issues. Sad

[rybocf]

I think it's due to the need and desire to innovate and push forward. Yes, you could mostly perfect a design that would last, but:

1. Almost No one would buy it because people want the new technology - your tried and true old school stuff won't sell to 90% of the market

2. Lots of people actually enjoy buying new cars and look forward to their buy/lease revolutions

3. Laws and social pressure for better fuel economy. Old designs won't meet new standards.

4. $$$. If everyone bought a car and kept it for 20 years the auto industry would look a LOT different.

[Kzang]

Originally Posted by rybocf

I think it's due to the need and desire to innovate and push forward. Yes, you could mostly perfect a design that would last, but:

1. Almost No one would buy it because people want the new technology - your tried and true old school stuff won't sell to 90% of the market

2. Lots of people actually enjoy buying new cars and look forward to their buy/lease revolutions

3. Laws and social pressure for better fuel economy. Old designs won't meet new standards.

4. $$$. If everyone bought a car and kept it for 20 years the auto industry would look a LOT different.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on this subject.

[Kr0m3assass1n]

Originally Posted by DuSh

IMHO market today dictates its own cruel rules and auto manufacturers comply to survive and make profit. In 1980s I remember Mercedes Benz or BMW made cars that lasted 20 years, some are even on the road today. That was quality! A million miles engine was not rare - Mers, BMW or even Volvo had one. Even Toyota's most reliable cars fade in comparison of what German engineering was capable of making

30 years later when technology is more advanced then ever - they can make a million miles car, but they don't. Instead we have modern engines that last 3-4 years without major issues (some still have issues within 1st year tho) and then after warranty is up - it's lottery. And I'm not even talking about ultramodern tech. No. Just basic old school - rod bearings failing on BMW engines as one simple example. Often failing after 20-30k miles. Or valve stem seals failing on barely broken in engines. This are all old school tech and yet materials they use are not up to standard to provide issue free and many years of happy motoring

It seems to me only Japanese and Korean brands are still trying to keep reliability up. It used to be you pay a lot more for German car, but you get a quality machine for many years. Now you pay a lot more and get a 5-7 years out of car if you are lucky to avoid major issues. Sad

Forgot a #rantover at the end lol


I think the biggest thing dictating this simple reliability issue is money. Manufacturers want the car to have serious issues soon after the warranty is over so buyers can sell/ trade for a new vehicle. They are far likely to make more money on you buying a new vehicle versus you maintaining your 10+ year vehicle via a dealer/ private shop.

BMW makes $ on the former, not the latter.

I know what you mean though, we've got F1 engines running thousands of miles at 18k+ rpm with hundreds of thousands of parts in the car and they mostly do just fine.

[boyce89976]

A lot of it is due to ever-changing (worsening) government and EPA regulations.

[expidia]

Originally Posted by DuSh

IMHO market today dictates its own cruel rules and auto manufacturers comply to survive and make profit. In 1980s I remember Mercedes Benz or BMW made cars that lasted 20 years, some are even on the road today. That was quality! A million miles engine was not rare - Mers, BMW or even Volvo had one. Even Toyota's most reliable cars fade in comparison of what German engineering was capable of making

30 years later when technology is more advanced then ever - they can make a million miles car, but they don't. Instead we have modern engines that last 3-4 years without major issues (some still have issues within 1st year tho) and then after warranty is up - it's lottery. And I'm not even talking about ultramodern tech. No. Just basic old school - rod bearings failing on BMW engines as one simple example. Often failing after 20-30k miles. Or valve stem seals failing on barely broken in engines. This are all old school tech and yet materials they use are not up to standard to provide issue free and many years of happy motoring

It seems to me only Japanese and Korean brands are still trying to keep reliability up. It used to be you pay a lot more for German car, but you get a quality machine for many years. Now you pay a lot more and get a 5-7 years out of car if you are lucky to avoid major issues. Sad

I agree with everything you say.
I think a lot has to do with the cheaper metals and components they import now. Take brake rotors as an example. I would never go below OEM, if I had to renew, I would go with minimum OEM or Brembo or similar if they are available.

The metals in cheaper rotors are so cheap now once you come off an exit at high speed and hit the brakes they develop hotspots and warping. Now the wheel vibrates and then it quickly transfers to eventually cupping the tires. Even if you could turn them (which they are mostly throw away now) you can't turn away the hotspots. So I'm sure the rods and other components or made with lower grade metals too.

Yet, some components they have made amazing improvements with over the old ones. I used to change blown or weak struts frequently on previous cars, yet the two Saabs 9-5's we both owned we never had to change a strut and sold them 16 years later one with 155k and the other 185k.

An Audi 5000 one of the first AWD's (I think). Which I owned many years ago I had to change CV joints and rubber boots way too frequently.

I never driven older BMW's, but because they have lightened the overall weight by using plastic and aluminum for many components and have improved the engines, mileage and transmissions, it's quite a thrill to hit the gas on my X5 and enjoy the amazing handling of this big SUV.

I'm sure older BMW's were never as smooth or as powerful and quiet as this X5 considering how big it it.

I think we get jaded way too quick on how great the X5's really are. It's like getting new tires. The first few days you feel like its a new car again. It handles again like you are driving on tennis balls, then a few days later, it feels same old same old again.

But you are so right about planned obsolescence. I really don't want to own my X5 too far out of warranty just for the reasons you have mentioned. That one $3,000 repair bill is equal to over 6 months of $400 a month payments. So it doesn't make financial sense to throw that kind of money into repairs on a 3 year or older BMW anymore IMO.

I'll sell my ride privately every few years for another or I might look at an Audi Q7 because I'm so impressed with my Wife's Q5 build. Especially, if I can save 10k over a BMW and get a 1 or 2 year old Q7 loaded. But I can't see me giving up the performance and handling of a BMW.

One can't appreciate their "ultimate driving machine" tag line until you actually own one.
Even when I test drove my current X5, It was not that different from my Toyota Highlander. I was not impressed because you actually have to own one to realize the handling and the power under that pedal.

But my crystal ball indicates that I'm seeing a spiffy new Ceramic coated Hyundai Genesis in your future, so ya got that going for ya

Good topic though . . . thx

[Kzang]

Current cars although are made of lighter components are many times bigger and heavier than the older cars from the 70's and 80's also I've never experienced any warped rotors on any of the past 4 BMW's I've had the last 10 years..

[boyce89976]

Originally Posted by Kzang

Current cars although are made of lighter components are many times bigger and heavier than the older cars from the 70's and 80's also I've never experienced any warped rotors on any of the past 4 BMW's I've had the last 10 years..

Most US made cars in the 70's were huge, holdover designs from the 60's (Olds, Pontiac, Buick, Lincoln). For a while, US car companies thought "Americans won't buy small Japanese cars" and kept on building 5000lb sedans. It wasn't until the (mid?) 80's they finally caught on and started mass producing smaller cars because they were losing market share at an exponential rate.

[Kzang]

Originally Posted by boyce89976

Most US made cars in the 70's were huge, holdover designs from the 60's (Olds, Pontiac, Buick, Lincoln). For a while, US car companies thought "Americans won't buy small Japanese cars" and kept on building 5000lb sedans. It wasn't until the (mid?) 80's they finally caught on and started mass producing smaller cars because they were losing market share at an exponential rate.

You are correct... I guess I should of said 80's then Back then I had direct experience with a Datsun, Toyota, Mazda cars and they were small.

[expidia]

Originally Posted by Kzang

Current cars although are made of lighter components are many times bigger and heavier than the older cars from the 70's and 80's also I've never experienced any warped rotors on any of the past 4 BMW's I've had the last 10 years..

You won't experience warped rotors when you renew with OEM or better. Try getting new rotors at a Pep Boys or similar. They replace with Chinese crap rotors.

[expidia]

Originally Posted by boyce89976

Most US made cars in the 70's were huge, holdover designs from the 60's (Olds, Pontiac, Buick, Lincoln). For a while, US car companies thought "Americans won't buy small Japanese cars" and kept on building 5000lb sedans. It wasn't until the (mid?) 80's they finally caught on and started mass producing smaller cars because they were losing market share at an exponential rate.

Ya, the U.S. car makers starting switching over to smaller models "after" the already lost over a 50% market share to the Japanese models. Then GM finally went bankrupt. Great business models.