H-Pipe + X-Pipe Combo?

[SilverSlug]

I read somewhere that an H-pipe early up the pipe near where the headers come down increases torque…

Couldn't I just splice in an H-pipe before the secondary cats, and leave my stock X-pipe as in order to have both?

Anyone do this to their exhaust system?

[DukeofAlexandria]

Cite your source, or else this is just garbage banter.

And in your mind, why do you think torque increases on our motors with an H-pipe?

-Duke

[SilverSlug]

Well there are many sources online which suggest that an H-pipe would increase torque, at the expense of less high end horsepower.

I know some exhaust manufacturers move the x-pipe further up with claims that increases torque.

My question is if there if anyone has spliced in an H-pipe ahead of their secondary cats to utilize both (H-pipe and X-pipe) simultaneously.

[DukeofAlexandria]

Again, cite your literature and where you read that? Unless you can cite a hard number source or detailed engine specifications, this argument doesn't hold water.

Yes, they can increase torque, but only in lower compression engines; usually below the ~9.5:1 ratio. This is a well known thing and why scavenging using an x-pipe has been preferred since the early/mid 90's - early 2000's in many vehicles.

An S65 is a 12:1 compression in it's stock form, an H-pipe would most likely be detrimental to not only the engine pulses, but also the scavenging effect. Unless you can give me hard numbers, I just don't think an H-pipe is worth your time.

-Duke

[SilverSlug]

The Akrapovic Evolution exhaust system which is designed specifically for the E9X M3, uses both and H and an X pipe.

Why would they do this if it didn't increase performance?

[DukeofAlexandria]

Because it's crapovic and they can charge people $3K+ for something that traditionally gives no noticeable gains in engines such as ours.

I don't know why they decided to do this, but I have a sinking suspicion that this is gimmicky as shit to say "oh, we have the ONLY H-pipe and X-pipe in the business around!".

If you're worried about torque/HP numbers, just go S/C or tune and test pipes, you'll be much happier - both in wallet and as far as sound goes.

-Duke

*Update* - Just read a thread where Evolve came out with one about 6 months after crapovic back in 2010....VERY sinking suspicion this is just a dick measuring contest at this point...caveat emptor.

[tdott]

I believe it was motor trend engine masters that did an engine dyno test with the different setups.

[SilverSlug]

Originally Posted by tdott

I believe it was motor trend engine masters that did an engine dyno test with the different setups.

Did they include an x/h pipe combo amongst the comparisons?

[SilverSlug]

Originally Posted by DukeofAlexandria

Again, cite your literature and where you read that? Unless you can cite a hard number source or detailed engine specifications, this argument doesn't hold water.

Yes, they can increase torque, but only in lower compression engines; usually below the ~9.5:1 ratio. This is a well known thing and why scavenging using an x-pipe has been preferred since the early/mid 90's - early 2000's in many vehicles.

An S65 is a 12:1 compression in it's stock form, an H-pipe would most likely be detrimental to not only the engine pulses, but also the scavenging effect. Unless you can give me hard numbers, I just don't think an H-pipe is worth your time.

-Duke

That Evolution system is closer to $6k retail, I think mainly because it's completely titanium (although now recently discontinued).

Dyno results would be ideal, and that's what I'm wondering about.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by SilverSlug

Did they include an x/h pipe combo amongst the comparisons?

Yes look up the video.

[SilverSlug]

I've been trying to find it since you mentioned it, but can't seem to find it.

Any chance you can post a link?

[tdott]

Originally Posted by SilverSlug

I've been trying to find it since you mentioned it, but can't seem to find it.

Any chance you can post a link?

Found it: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5s8nr8

Hpipe gives 0.2 wtq more at 4300 rpm, but xpipe makes 1.3whp more at 6000rpm.
So almost negligeble difference.

[Gossypiboma]

An H-pipe is a rudimentary X-pipe. So there would be zero benefit of having both in an exhaust system. The idea is to create a scavenging affect, but an H type connection does this with 90* angles vs. a smooth transition with an X design.

The Akrapovic system as been shown to have tuning issues and create less power than other catless x-pipes.

[redline9001]

Originally Posted by Gossypiboma

An H-pipe is a rudimentary X-pipe. So there would be zero benefit of having both in an exhaust system. The idea is to create a scavenging affect, but an H type connection does this with 90* angles vs. a smooth transition with an X design.

The Akrapovic system as been shown to have tuning issues and create less power than other catless x-pipes.

special tunes have been developed that solve the issues and have been around for a long time ... it is not a mystery or a problem.

Arka has been proven over and over again to be one of the best solutions for the s65 and the standard evo is not catless

[Gossypiboma]

Originally Posted by redline9001

special tunes have been developed that solve the issues and have been around for a long time ... it is not a mystery or a problem.

Arka has been proven over and over again to be one of the best solutions for the s65 and the standard evo is not catless

There are tunes that somewhat fix the power dip that was initially seen, but it still makes less power than a proper forwardly placed X-crossover. Its not been proven to do anything exceptional and is no different then any other x-pipe with an OEM crossover. Yes, its titanium and light. It does sound good, but the OP is asking about performance which the Akro is lacking.

[Lienrocs]

Originally Posted by Gossypiboma

There are tunes that somewhat fix the power dip that was initially seen, but it still makes less power than a proper forwardly placed X-crossover. Its not been proven to do anything exceptional and is no different then any other x-pipe with an OEM crossover. Yes, its titanium and light. It does sound good, but the OP is asking about performance which the Akro is lacking.

Performance in a pure horsepower sense is a horrible argument for the S65 if you're staying NA. 15 wheel horsepower across the various different x pipe solutions is really negligible in overall performance of the car. I'd take an akra evo over something much heavier but that's because I focused on light weight over horsepower. FBO s65's are a joke. It's been said again and again, if you want horsepower get a blower or find a different car.

I'm not disagreeing that akra, as far as horsepower per dollar is concerned, is lacking but if you're focusing on driving dynamics as the theme of your build it's second to none.

[lve2xlr8]

Originally Posted by DukeofAlexandria

Because it's crapovic and they can charge people $3K+ for something that traditionally gives no noticeable gains in engines such as ours.

I don't know why they decided to do this, but I have a sinking suspicion that this is gimmicky as shit to say "oh, we have the ONLY H-pipe and X-pipe in the business around!".

If you're worried about torque/HP numbers, just go S/C or tune and test pipes, you'll be much happier - both in wallet and as far as sound goes.

-Duke

*Update* - Just read a thread where Evolve came out with one about 6 months after crapovic back in 2010....VERY sinking suspicion this is just a dick measuring contest at this point...caveat emptor.

Crapovic? Good one. What is your qualm with the system? That it's overpriced or popular? Great logic. That kit is definitely one of the most premium aftermarket parts to be released on the e9x platform and I'm thankful it exists. No need to be a hater.

[DukeofAlexandria]

Originally Posted by lve2xlr8

Crapovic? Good one. What is your qualm with the system? That it's overpriced or popular? Great logic. That kit is definitely one of the most premium aftermarket parts to be released on the e9x platform and I'm thankful it exists. No need to be a hater.

Time and time again, the majority of people who install the akro have either been let down, or the tones don't come through with the titanium exhaust, or has had tuning issues. I've heard it, it sounds tinny sounding and not over all loud. It really isn't that popular with the E9X platform anymore, and much better options exist in todays market on a 10+ year old car.

Sorry to trigger you with my opinions, and apparently they mean I'm a 'hater'....great logic?

-Duke

[amrazM]

Originally Posted by DukeofAlexandria

Again, cite your literature and where you read that? Unless you can cite a hard number source or detailed engine specifications, this argument doesn't hold water.

Yes, they can increase torque, but only in lower compression engines; usually below the ~9.5:1 ratio. This is a well known thing and why scavenging using an x-pipe has been preferred since the early/mid 90's - early 2000's in many vehicles.

An S65 is a 12:1 compression in it's stock form, an H-pipe would most likely be detrimental to not only the engine pulses, but also the scavenging effect. Unless you can give me hard numbers, I just don't think an H-pipe is worth your time.

-Duke

Qouting Blane Burnett, information sourced from superchevy.com, im assuming these guys know about V8 exhaust systems since the 327 has been around for 70 years now.

Duke, I mean karen you're annoying, the guy asked a question and you're harassing him talking about cite your sources, lol bro this isn't college the guy is just inquiring.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/exh...ett%20explains.

"H-pipes typically offer increased backpressure compared to an X-pipe, which nets an increase in low-end torque. They are also more tunable because they offer more options in terms of the length of the crossover, the diameter of the tube, and the size and location of the transfer hole,"

[Rochen_00]

Originally Posted by DukeofAlexandria

Time and time again, the majority of people who install the akro have either been let down, or the tones don't come through with the titanium exhaust, or has had tuning issues. I've heard it, it sounds tinny sounding and not over all loud. It really isn't that popular with the E9X platform anymore, and much better options exist in todays market on a 10+ year old car.

Sorry to trigger you with my opinions, and apparently they mean I'm a 'hater'....great logic?

-Duke

First time I hear that someone has had adjustment problems when mounting an Akra evo exhaust LOL

Honestly, it's not the loudest exhaust on the market, it's true that only the rear silencer with the xpipe oem the sound is laughable. But the full akra evo line sounds great, exotic and not over the top. As some other colleague has commented, in addition to the gain in power, you take away a good peak of weight from the car and that is very interesting.

[DukeofAlexandria]

Originally Posted by amrazM

Qouting Blane Burnett, information sourced from superchevy.com, im assuming these guys know about V8 exhaust systems since the 327 has been around for 70 years now.

Duke, I mean karen you're annoying, the guy asked a question and you're harassing him talking about cite your sources, lol bro this isn't college the guy is just inquiring.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/exh...ett%20explains.

"H-pipes typically offer increased backpressure compared to an X-pipe, which nets an increase in low-end torque. They are also more tunable because they offer more options in terms of the length of the crossover, the diameter of the tube, and the size and location of the transfer hole,"

Ahhh, the ol' "it doesn't matter where the information came from" argument. Classic. In that case, air filters give you 10HP. Oh wait, they don't, because technical specifications and testing have been conducted in order to debunk that with hard numbers.

My apologies for asking for an actual numbers sheet instead of just believing whatever someone says. I even clarified later on that they don't do much based on our 12:1 compression.

P.S. - That article makes no mention of small block 327 chevy's, only of a high compression LS7 that actually uses an X-pipe, and when they do discuss the difference (see your link) they make no mention of what compression they are utilizing the X vs. H pipe. But me asking for actual data points is the issue....what a joke lol.

-Duke

[amrazM]

Originally Posted by DukeofAlexandria

My apologies for asking for an actual numbers sheet instead of just believing whatever someone says.

But me asking for actual data points is the issue....what a joke lol.

-Duke

See below DukeofAlexandria

Originally Posted by DukeofAlexandria

Cite your source, or else this is just garbage banter.

-Duke

quite necessary to be an asshole when someone is just asking for information no? Or is that just the way you choose to speak to everyone you come in contact with??

actually, based on this previous thread you created its easy to realize you are just a moody asshole.

https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...keofalexandria

Originally Posted by DukeofAlexandria

Again, sorry, was super tired last night and not in the best mood, my apologies.